Extreme deep pocket concealment question: which would you pick?

[mc5aw]

DonDee ... This thread has got me thinking and researching. Looking at the Seecamp, which has some distinct advantages for deep concealment, I see that the recommended ammo is quite expensive. This rules out cost effective "range" ammo or reloads for practice. Obviously with such a small gun, practice is imperative, but range shooting Hydra-Shocks, Gold Dots, Silver Tips, etc. is not realistic unless one has a sizable budget. Thus, I'm wondering if many (NOT all) owners of Seecamps end up carrying a lot without being able to shoot enough to truly master the gun. This is not a criticism, merely an inquiry. I carry J-frames exclusively, and though ammo costs have rocketed in recent years, I'm still able to find relatively cheap practice ammo for my range outings. I'm able to practice on a regular basis without going broke, and feel comfortable knowing that the firearm I carry has seen sufficient range time.

 

[DonDee]

DonDee ... This thread has got me thinking and researching. Looking at the Seecamp, which has some distinct advantages for deep concealment, I see that the recommended ammo is quite expensive. This rules out cost effective "range" ammo or reloads for practice. Obviously with such a small gun, practice is imperative, but range shooting Hydra-Shocks, Gold Dots, Silver Tips, etc. is not realistic unless one has a sizable budget. Thus, I'm wondering if many (NOT all) owners of Seecamps end up carrying a lot without being able to shoot enough to truly master the gun. This is not a criticism, merely an inquiry. I carry J-frames exclusively, and though ammo costs have rocketed in recent years, I'm still able to find relatively cheap practice ammo for my range outings. I'm able to practice on a regular basis without going broke, and feel comfortable knowing that the firearm I carry has seen sufficient range time.

mc5aw, I'll answer your very valid question the best I can.

Every Seecamp has had at least 2 mags run through it before it left the factory; if it didn't run flawlessly they worked on it until it did run 2 mags perfectly. Larry Seecamp says there is no need to break it in at all, and he decries the old "200 round rule" as bunk.

Having said that, the Seecamp is no range gun and never has been. I'll promise you that even with the .32 you will not want to spend much range time, not to mention the .380! It's strictly a last ditch close up defensive weapon. At an encounter of 10 feet or less, one would count on his point and shoot instincts kicking in. They don't even come with sights! Yes, you'd want to spend enough time shooting to become familiar with it, but beyond that it's really just a carry piece. I'd shoot a couple of mags once a year or so, then clean it and load the rest of the box to carry until next year.

That's my take on it; hope it helps.

 

[ladder13]

mc5aw, I'll answer your very valid question the best I can.

Every Seecamp has had at least 2 mags run through it before it left the factory; if it didn't run flawlessly they worked on it until it did run 2 mags perfectly. Larry Seecamp says there is no need to break it in at all, and he decries the old "200 round rule" as bunk.

Having said that, the Seecamp is no range gun and never has been. I'll promise you that even with the .32 you will not want to spend much range time, not to mention the .380! It's strictly a last ditch close up defensive weapon. At an encounter of 10 feet or less, one would count on his point and shoot instincts kicking in. They don't even come with sights! Yes, you'd want to spend enough time shooting to become familiar with it, but beyond that it's really just a carry piece. I'd shoot a couple of mags once a year or so, then clean it and load the rest of the box to carry until next year.

That's my take on it; hope it helps.

I agree with all the above, and mainly, that it's not a range gun. It's for up close and personal, doesn't need sights just needs to be reliable.
I currently own both a 32 and a 380. The 32 was bought in 1988, one of the early guns, when there was a 1 year wait or more, and the gun was Silvertip specific. I waited about 2 years for my 380 and it was also one of the early production guns.
The 32 is being offered for sale in the classifieds(shameless plug) because after I got the 380 I saw no more need for the 32, it's almost the exact same size.
As far as the ammo issue goes, Larry Seecamp wrote an interesting piece on his website. Here it is:

L.W. Seecamp Co. - Home of the Seecamp 32 and Seecamp 380 Pistols

The 380 Seecamps are expensive, yes. But, imo, worth every penny over other 380's. ymmv

 

[mc5aw]

The more I'm reading, the more attractive that little .32 is. The .380 appears to be pretty mean to shoot, even occasionally. Too bad it's not available in .25.

 

[ladder13]

The more I'm reading, the more attractive that little .32 is. The .380 appears to be pretty mean to shoot, even occasionally. Too bad it's not available in .25.

It was! They're not current productions guns but they were made before the 32's. Sometimes they come up for sale on the Seecamp forum.
Matter of fact there one FS there right now, but real pricey

 

[Double-O-Dave]

I remember reading a write up by a famous gun writer on the .32ACP Seecamp version shortly after it was released. He spoke highly of the piece and said people had the wrong idea of he efficacy of the .32ACP round. The writer said if he ever had to use the Seecamp in a self defense situation, he wouldn't shoot it slowly, one round at a time, but instead, he would shoot it rapidly and empty the magazine into his assailant so the effect would be like hitting him with a single round of 12 gauge 00-Buck. Anyone who has ever fired a Seecamp knows that writer is full of...nonsense. The trigger pull is long and deliberate, and strictly double action only. I treated everything else that writer had to say about anything with a gigantic grain of salt. By the way, I'm very happy with my Seecamp in .32ACP. I wouldn't be comfortable with a .25, nor would I look forward to shooting a .380 version. The .32ACP is entertaining enough for me.

Regards,

Dave

 

[mc5aw]

Mike or Dave ... How would you characterize the recoil from the .32? Similar to a wadcutter in an Airweight/Lite? Seecamp lists the LWS 32 at 10.45oz without the magazine, 11.5oz with it, so the overall unloaded weight is not that much different than the lightest J-frame.

Apologies if this appears to be a thread hijacking. It is not ... the thread has generated some valuable information for discussion and consideration.

 

[surfcc]

Just some food for thought.

Many states forbid pocket carry by law. They require any gun inside a pocket to be holstered.

That being the case, a person needing a gun quickly will have difficulty getting a gun out of a holster while in a pocket. They probably will not have time or other things to take the gun & holster out of the pocket, remove the gun from the holster and still be able to use it.

Best check the laws on pocket carry in your state and those you visit.

If you live in any state other than Illinois, concealed carry allows you to carry concealed....even in a pocket. I don't know of any concealed carry laws that do not allow pocket carry.

 

[surfcc]

If you live in any state other than Illinois, concealed carry allows you to carry concealed....even in a pocket. I don't know of any concealed carry laws that do not allow pocket carry.

....That said, you'd be foolish not to pocket carry in a pocket holster.

 

[Double-O-Dave]

Mike or Dave ... How would you characterize the recoil from the .32? Similar to a wadcutter in an Airweight/Lite? Seecamp lists the LWS 32 at 10.45oz without the magazine, 11.5oz with it, so the overall unloaded weight is not that much different than the lightest J-frame.

mc5aw:

As someone has already indicated, the LWS is not a range gun. I have a small hand (size 6.5 surgical gloves), and I can only get 1 finger (middle finger) on the grip. I practice shooting it one-handed only. The recoil vertically isn't bad, I don't try to control it, I just try to get it back on target as quickly as possible. Because of the lack of grip space, and also because I insist on shooting it one-handed, the piece does smack my palm, but it doesn't seem to be any worse than shooting 148gr. wadcutters out of an airweight J-frame (either a 642 or Model 38-0). In other words, the recoil is manageable and tolerable to me. It's been a while, but if I remember correctly, I weighed a fully loaded Model 642 and it was around 14.5oz.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Dave

 

[browntown]

As the "gun guy" to my friends, these questions come up every now and then as people with in hush tones say something like "hey, you carry a gun right? Where can I take a class and which gun do you reccomend"

Now 99% of these people never really follow through and don't end up carrying but the few that do always want to know about something small. I always refer them to this page. Again the 32acp is great for a pocket gun. Anything bigger means a step up in gun size.

Click here and then click to magnify to full size. The J-frame is on the bottom for reference and is significantly bigger

 

[jdh]

Dimensionally, the Kel-tec .32 is smaller than the Kel-tec P3AT

P3AT .380 P32 .32 Auto
Weight 8.3 oz. 6.6 oz.
Frame Width 0.798" 0.765" .033
Barrel Length 2.745" 2.675" .007
Slide Width 0.748" 0.748" .000
Overall Length 5.14" 5.08" .006
Height 3.576" 3.571" .005
Cartridge Capacity 6+1 7+1

A few thousands here and there. Lay one on top of the other and tell the the difference.

 

[Minnehaha]

Deep Concealment Choice

I only saw one other poster that uses my bug of choice, the Beretta 21A Bobcat 22LR. You all probably think we are crazy, but---- It's all metal so its got some heft, manual safety, tip up barrel, it's SA/DA, tiny and hides well in any pocket in a Desantis Nemesis holster (good with shorts and T Shirts. Only any good up to 15 feet but its louder and has more muzzel flash than most 357s. People say a 22 is not a serious self defense caliber, but how would you like to get 8 CCI Stinger HPs in the face? When confronted most bad guys will move on and find easier prey. I've found the gun and the CCI ammo to both be completely reliable. 22 ammo is cheap and always available.

 

[PX15]

JMOfartO:

Well, I've enjoyed reading all of the posts, and thought I'd add my 2c worth. Probably worth about that much, but here it is.

First I have the Seecamp in 32 & 380 cal. I also have two LCP's. (one with Innovative Arms sight upgrade and Crimson Trace laser, the 2nd, bone-stock).

FWIW I also have a couple of J-frame Smiths, and a Ruger LC9 as well.

Here's my take on what I chose to carry concealed:

1. LWS380 90% of the time in a Hedley rear pocket holster.
2. LCP (w/upgrades) the remaining 10% of the time in a L.Hedley rear pocket holster.

Here's why.

The Seecamp (in any caliber) is simply so darn tiny it can be carried easily concealed in ANY of my trousers rear pockets.
The LCP is a bit larger and WHEN it will fit in my trouser pockets it would be my first choice. (because of the external sights and laser and it's much easier to shoot than the LWS380).

For me personally any snubby is simply too "bulky" for ease of cc, (cylinder width) and the J-frames only offer 5 rounds anyway.

The LC9 is a wonderful "big brother" to the LCP, but again too large for rear pocket carry.

I have never found an easier way to carry a firearm concealed than the Seecamp in a rear pocket holster.. Never, and I've tried most of 'em.

IF a person asked me which Seecamp I would recommend for a person new to guns I'd say get the LWS32 without question. The LWS32 is pretty easy to shoot with very little "recoil/associated drama"..

I carry the LWS380 (w/fingertip extension) because I have it. I wanted one, I have one, so I carry one. But, knowing what I know now, I'd have been just as well off with the LWS32 I bought first.

In the world of concealed carry TINY is King... Never found a gun smaller or easier to conceal than my Seecamps. (I had a couple of NAA Guardians in 32cal. and they are just fine, do a great job, but in 32cal. you can buy a Seecamp rather than a Seecamp "clone" for about the same price. The NAA is a Seecamp clone.

IF you have larger rear pockets than I have, I'd suggest the LCP.. I love my LCP's, just wish they were the size of the Seecamp ~ they are not..

Finally I would suggest anyone considering a pocket rocket to forget about shooting beyond 7 yards, max. Practice at 3-7 yards until you can put 'em all in the center mass of a target, then go about your business. NO small cc gun is designed as a 15 yard target pistol, so don't expect accuracy from that distance with any of them.

For the person concerned about the expense of dedicated self defense rounds in the Seecamp?

Winchester White box Q4255's function perfectly in the LWS32's of both my wife and myself, and the Winchester White Box VP380 functions equally well in my LWS380. (These are truncated fmj rounds).

I wouldn't worry a whole lot about range time in a Seecamp or LCP.. Basically in a self defense situation it'll happen QUICKLY, at CLOSE UP and PERSONAL distance, and be OVER with few rounds fired..

Practice "point and shoot" from "close up and personal" distance and you've done about all you can to defend yourself.

Oh yeah.. For me RELIABILITY is JOB ONE in a self defense firearm.. All of our Seecamps AND our 3 LCP's (my wife has one of her own) have been so..

Good Shooting!

Jesse

 

[joespapa]

I didn't realize that the Boberg and Seecamp 380 were in the $1,000 +/- price range. That's up there with the Rohrbaugh. Factor in the expected wait and you've got a sizable investment money-wise and time-wise. I'd be more inclined to spend that $1,000 on three S&W 642s or 442s, and minimize the boot grips as much as possible for deepest concealment. Revolver reliability, .38 Special, and immediate delivery. My 2c.

Plus one! I pocket carry a 638 all day every day dress slacks, shorts, whatever. Plenty light for me and 38 special deadly!

 

[PX15]

Plus one! I pocket carry a 638 all day every day dress slacks, shorts, whatever. Plenty light for me and 38 special deadly!

FWIW:

I just gave a favorite step-son my 638 w/CT Lasergrips last month. It was my favorite snubby, but he had asked me several years ago (when I first purchased it) if I would let him "inherit" it one day. (I'm 69 lol)

Since I don't use my snubby's for cc anymore I figured I'd go ahead and give it to him now, and he was proud to get it.

I loved the smooth wide target trigger of the 638.

Jesse

 

[26Ford]

Let me know when your ready to get serious................

BTW, for those of you that might be new and playing along at home, this pocket rocket uses the 357 Magnum round. Enjoy.

 

[MP1518]

The smallest handgun I ever carry is an older 642 (38spl) and my 60-9LS. + one reload.

Speer Gold Dots 135+p

 

[Packard]

Nothing wrong with a 642 at $400 or LCP for $300 and change.

Or a 10 ounce 43C with 8 rounds of .22 magnum (about the same power as a .32).

 

[bennettfam]

deep pockets, ha ha

Is this for the rich folk?

I think your joke on the "deep pocket" phrase wasn't cought by anyone. I appreciated it though.

For choices, put me down as another vote for the J-frame .38+P, if you can conceal it.