Boy, 7.2gr of Bullseye is a lot of powder. Wasn't the original 230gr .45acp loaded with 4.8 to 5gr of BE? No wonder the 06 rnds chronoed approx 1,000fps with a 230gr fmj........
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The Army Tests the Triple Lock in 1907
- Thread starter TripleLock
- Start date
DWalt
Member
That information about the FA 1907 trial .45 revolver cartridge is essentially what I and others have pieced together. I've seen, as previously stated, that some of these rounds have the bullet staked or punched in place as there were problems encountered with the bullets backing out under recoil. But the real question is, is this cartridge the same as the mysterious so-called .45 (S&W) Special or .45 Frankford? And what were the S&W TLs used in the trial chambered for - .45 Colt or something else?
There was also considerable trouble with the FA ammunition quality, and some handgun submitters requested, and were granted, the latitude to use commercial ammunition made to the same Army specifications. I don't know what the headstamps of the substitute UMC commercial .45 Revolver ammunition were - maybe .45 Special?
There was also considerable trouble with the FA ammunition quality, and some handgun submitters requested, and were granted, the latitude to use commercial ammunition made to the same Army specifications. I don't know what the headstamps of the substitute UMC commercial .45 Revolver ammunition were - maybe .45 Special?
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There are presently some Frankford Model of 1909 .45 Cartridges listed on an Auction Site who's initials would be something like 'gb'.
Search term '45 Colt Model 1909 Frankford" would likely bring it up, since that is the listing title phrase.
I know these are not the 'mystery' Cartridge in question, but, it is kind of fun to see what the '09 looked like anyway.
I have no affiliation with the seller and I am not promoting the item.
Search term '45 Colt Model 1909 Frankford" would likely bring it up, since that is the listing title phrase.
I know these are not the 'mystery' Cartridge in question, but, it is kind of fun to see what the '09 looked like anyway.
I have no affiliation with the seller and I am not promoting the item.
Thanks triplelock for the dimensions. Although the two cartridges shown are different with different bullets, I notice they are both rimmed.
If we could only get the chamber dimensions of a 45 Special/45 Frankford chambered Triplelock.
If we could only get the chamber dimensions of a 45 Special/45 Frankford chambered Triplelock.
Chromedhearts
US Veteran
How about that line stating that the hammer and trigger were lubricated with, "sputum". Good ol' spit.
Here are some dimensions taken from Triple Lock SN 09. It is a pre-production item made for the army trials. It has a 6 1/2 inch barrel with no caliber markings. This gun was part of my brother's collection.
Headspace in gun: .055 (cylinder pressed forward)
Cylinder OD: 1.694
Clinder length: 1.580 (1917 cylinder is 1.535
chamber depth: .895
Chamber dia: .477
Throat dia of cyl: .454
The front of the chamber is tapered like any other rimmed cartridge chamber.
I will try to attach some pictures. The third round has no headstamp, all others have the FA 4 06.
Ken
Headspace in gun: .055 (cylinder pressed forward)
Cylinder OD: 1.694
Clinder length: 1.580 (1917 cylinder is 1.535
chamber depth: .895
Chamber dia: .477
Throat dia of cyl: .454
The front of the chamber is tapered like any other rimmed cartridge chamber.
I will try to attach some pictures. The third round has no headstamp, all others have the FA 4 06.
Ken
Attachments
DWalt
Member
Exactly what is meant by chamber depth, i.e., is that the measurement from the rear face of the cylinder to a step in the chamber? Is there a recess in the chamber for a rim? Will a .45 Colt case chamber in it?
Chamber depth is from the rear of the cylinder to the step. There is no rim recess. .45 Colt, Schofield, and 1909 are all too long to fit this cylinder. There was a box with this gun. Stamped in ink was, I believe the number 13. The usual end label was the name ".45 Special". I have heard of other boxes labeled this way but have not personally seen them. S&W must have thought that this cartridge would become regular production.
Ken
Ken
DWalt
Member
If that's the situation, then it seems to be likely that the TLs used for the 1907 test were actually chambered specifically for the 1906 FA experimental round and for nothing else. Is there a caliber marking anywhere on the revolver?
opoefc
US Veteran
Triple Locks, serial # 2 and #9,both formerly in my possession, ( yes, #9, Number 09 is a different gun) are both chambered in .45 S&W Special. No caliber markings on either gun. I believe S&W labeled a quantity of boxes with the end label that says "S&W .45 Special" in the anticipation that the cartridge & revolvers would be come cataloged items, as more of such boxes have turned up over the years, than the guns. Ed.
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DWalt
Member
Well, I guess that nails it down. I now wonder how Colt chambered their .45 New Service revolvers that were sent to the 1907 trials? And if any of them were marked as .45 Special on their box labels or on the revolver?
Ken thanks very much for taking the time to share that information!
Congratulations on owning such a special piece of S&W history.
All the best,
DWalt
Member
This has been an interesting thread, and I think everyone has learned a great deal. I knew the generalities, but not the specifics.
Texas Star
US Veteran
Where else could one find this info?! This is a great board.
Modern 45 S&W Specials
A few years ago for my 1917 and .45 1950 Target I became fed up with using 45 ACP in moon clips and 45 AR brass just wasn't that available and too pricey when found. Since I reload, the price advantage of ACP ammo is irrelevant to me.
As a Cowboy action shooter I was aware of a new cartridge called the Cowboy 45 Special which has the case length of 45 ACP (.895").
I reloaded and used them in my Single Action Colts and Rugers very successfully for efficient light competitive loads. See them here:
cowboy45brass
They shot even better in my 45 ACP DA revolvers when taper crimped because there was no bullet jump to the chamber throat like in the 45 Colt SA cylinders. The case mouth headspaces on the square chamber shoulders in ACP cylinders and the case heads protrude from the chambers exactly the amount as 45 ACP cases.
I've also shortened Starline 45 S&W Schofield solid head cases to .895 and they work just as well. I no longer need moon clips and of course with the rim, they ejected perfectly in DAs. I reload them with ACP dies and a 45 Colt shellholder with my standard ACP loadings. They give excellent accuracy in my Smith DAs. And my Smiths are correctly marked since S&W has always rollmarked their ACP guns just ".45 Caliber".
I suppose one could call them modern 45 S&W Specials. Now I just need to find a 1st run 455 Triple lock with a cylinder already modified to shoot 45 ACP or a spare ACP cylinder to fit to it, to have a replica 45 S&W Special Triple Lock that I can shoot w/o depreciating the value of a highly collectible original. Hmmmmmm...how about a 45 Spl TL Target? I have a refinished triple lock 44 target and a TL 455 barrel. Anyone have an orphan pre war HD or 44 Spl cylinder to rechamber?
And properly shortend and sized 45 Schofield cases could easily be used to make 45 Special ammo for an original 45 Spl Triple Lock if one wished to shoot it.
A few years ago for my 1917 and .45 1950 Target I became fed up with using 45 ACP in moon clips and 45 AR brass just wasn't that available and too pricey when found. Since I reload, the price advantage of ACP ammo is irrelevant to me.
As a Cowboy action shooter I was aware of a new cartridge called the Cowboy 45 Special which has the case length of 45 ACP (.895").
I reloaded and used them in my Single Action Colts and Rugers very successfully for efficient light competitive loads. See them here:
cowboy45brass
They shot even better in my 45 ACP DA revolvers when taper crimped because there was no bullet jump to the chamber throat like in the 45 Colt SA cylinders. The case mouth headspaces on the square chamber shoulders in ACP cylinders and the case heads protrude from the chambers exactly the amount as 45 ACP cases.
I've also shortened Starline 45 S&W Schofield solid head cases to .895 and they work just as well. I no longer need moon clips and of course with the rim, they ejected perfectly in DAs. I reload them with ACP dies and a 45 Colt shellholder with my standard ACP loadings. They give excellent accuracy in my Smith DAs. And my Smiths are correctly marked since S&W has always rollmarked their ACP guns just ".45 Caliber".
I suppose one could call them modern 45 S&W Specials. Now I just need to find a 1st run 455 Triple lock with a cylinder already modified to shoot 45 ACP or a spare ACP cylinder to fit to it, to have a replica 45 S&W Special Triple Lock that I can shoot w/o depreciating the value of a highly collectible original. Hmmmmmm...how about a 45 Spl TL Target? I have a refinished triple lock 44 target and a TL 455 barrel. Anyone have an orphan pre war HD or 44 Spl cylinder to rechamber?
And properly shortend and sized 45 Schofield cases could easily be used to make 45 Special ammo for an original 45 Spl Triple Lock if one wished to shoot it.
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DWalt
Member
I guess I'm lucky, as I have a pretty good supply of .45 AR brass for my Colt 1917. However, most of my use of the 1917 is with .45 ACP in full moon clips, as reloading is considerably faster. I do IDPA shooting with the 1917, so reloading speed is important. The only part I don't like is prying out the empties from the full moon clip - but I can do that anytime. My favorite removal tool is the corner of a steel ammo box.
A couple of years ago I lucked into three boxes of new .45 AR ammunition, Remington, circa maybe 1935 (the old dogbone style), for $10/box. I haven't fired any yet, and probably will not, as the boxes and cartridges are pristine.
A couple of years ago I lucked into three boxes of new .45 AR ammunition, Remington, circa maybe 1935 (the old dogbone style), for $10/box. I haven't fired any yet, and probably will not, as the boxes and cartridges are pristine.
OP
TripleLock
Member
So, if I'm understanding all of this correctly, the "45 Special" was Smith & Wesson's attempt to commercially introduce Frankford Arsenal's "Model of 1906" revolver cartridge, developed for use in the Army's 1907 trials, which was nothing more nor less than a rimmed version of the test cartridge for the semi-auto pistols in the same trials; an idea that was revisited post-WWI by the Peters Cartridge Co., with a thicker rim (but otherwise dimensionally identical to the "Pistol Ball, Caliber .45, Model of 1911", or "45 ACP") for use in Model 1917 revolvers, and produced as the "45 Auto-Rim".
TL
And, for good measure, another example of the "Revolver Ball, Caliber .45, Model of 1906" (aka "45 Frankford" or "45 Special") cartridge and headstamp.
TL
And, for good measure, another example of the "Revolver Ball, Caliber .45, Model of 1906" (aka "45 Frankford" or "45 Special") cartridge and headstamp.
Attachments
TLock, that is a nice clean specimen of the FA 06 round that you have. This is speculation on my part, but S&W probably was considering making the FA round a commercial round, but reconsidered after the negative comments from the military. I do believe the rimmed and rimless were the same cartridge made for either revolver or auto pistol.
My take on the Auto-rim is that it was simply an expediant to make the many surplus military revolvers more user friendly for target, hunting and self defence firearms to avoid those pesky clips. . Another consideration was that it was felt that ball ammo would wear the bore faster than lead. To add to the speculation, I have seen a commercial loading of the AR with a jacketed bullet. Perhaps that one was for serious business.
I sure wish I had bought several of both brands of revolvers while they were thirty dollars or so from the surplus dealers.
Ken
My take on the Auto-rim is that it was simply an expediant to make the many surplus military revolvers more user friendly for target, hunting and self defence firearms to avoid those pesky clips. . Another consideration was that it was felt that ball ammo would wear the bore faster than lead. To add to the speculation, I have seen a commercial loading of the AR with a jacketed bullet. Perhaps that one was for serious business.
I sure wish I had bought several of both brands of revolvers while they were thirty dollars or so from the surplus dealers.
Ken
TL, I think you summed it up perfectly.
I can only surmise that by 1908 when the TL went into regular production, Smith saw the 'handwriting on the wall' that the 45 Frankford/45 Spl was already obsolete as the cartridge was quickly evolving into something better, namely the 45 ACP. Especially when they saw the 45 Colt of 1909 and the Colt New Service adopted by the Army.
I wonder if Smith intended to produce the TL in 45 Special in addition to the 44 Special or instead of the 44. I would put my money on "in addition to" the 44 Spl, since they already had all the R&D in the 44 Spl.
I can only surmise that by 1908 when the TL went into regular production, Smith saw the 'handwriting on the wall' that the 45 Frankford/45 Spl was already obsolete as the cartridge was quickly evolving into something better, namely the 45 ACP. Especially when they saw the 45 Colt of 1909 and the Colt New Service adopted by the Army.
I wonder if Smith intended to produce the TL in 45 Special in addition to the 44 Special or instead of the 44. I would put my money on "in addition to" the 44 Spl, since they already had all the R&D in the 44 Spl.
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