The Army Tests the Triple Lock in 1907

[gripper]

.45 Special Box

Here are a few pics of a .455 2nd model and it's original box shipped June 9th, 1916.
Note the .45 special designation on the inside lid of the box and the .455 MK II end label that was pasted over a pre existing green label.

Chad Gripp
SWCA #2323

 

[ddixie884]

I found a little more info on the 1906 trials cartridge in Handloader #265 from April 2010. Dave Scovill wrote on page 8 "The Saga of R.S.Q." He also addressed the 1909 cartridge, the length of the .44spl case in relation to bulky smokless powders, says the rimless version is nearly identical to the Webley Fosbery case, loaded with 6.9gr of R.S.Q. and mentions there is a photo of a Colt New Service Model 1907 chambered in the experimental cartridge in a book published in 2009. Seems to me the 06 cartridge has a lot in common with the various Webley ctgs. The rim is only .03 thicker than the .455. Just a little more info on this topic, not much, I'm afraid.......

 

[DWalt]

I do not know anything about R.S.Q. powder, but I do have a sealed box of "Model of 1909" cartridges from Frankford Arsenal, dated March 1912, that gives on the label a muzzle velocity of +/- 715 feet per second, loaded with R.S.Q. Lot No. 3, of 1911.

 

[Club Gun Fan]

Quote in part from Ed Cornett's comment" The approx. one doz. extra .45 Special test frames were made up with zero prefix serial numbers , in the 080's range, and sent to VIPs, but most have .44 Special barrels & cylinders. Those 12 frames could not have been made for the 1907 tests.
They were all given out in 1906. The numbers were 088-099. I have included a picture of my Triple Lock, it is 088. The first one in the group of 12.

 

[DWalt]

Regarding the ".45 Special" cartridge, about all I have found is from "History of Modern U. S. Military Small Arms Ammunition" by Hackley, Woodin, and Scranton. The cartridge was referred to as the "Cal. 45 Ball, Model of 1906," however there was no "official" nomenclature assigned to it, as it was a purely an experimental cartridge made for use in the 1906-1907 Army Board trials. It was developed at Frankford Arsenal beginning in 1905, and had a rimmed case 0.923" in length, a 230 grain cupronickel jacketed bullet (drawings show a hemispherical nose), and used 7.2 grains of Bullseye powder. The FA drawing number was 47-3-18. The only headstamp known is F A 4 06. Measured specimens differ slightly from the drawing dimensions. An initial test lot was produced at FA in January 1906 (size of lot not given), and 10,000 rounds were ordered by the Ordnance Office. Cases were made during April 1906 and were loaded and released in July 1906. Ordnance records indicate that both cannelured and un-cannelured cases were manufactured, and one specimen was observed having a cannelured case and three stab crimps near the case mouth. A cannelure, when present, is at the base of the seated bullet.

Dimensions given in the drawing: Rim Diameter - 0.533"; Head Diameter - 0.473"; Neck Diameter - 0.473"; Bullet Diameter - 0.453"; Case Length - 0.923"; Overall Cartridge Length - 1.3". As earlier stated, measurements of actual cartridges differ from the drawing dimensions. For example, the measured bullet diameter is 0.451".

During the Board trials, there was a problem with a high misfire rate from the FA-manufactured ammunition. There is some indication that, as a result, commercially-manufactured ammuniton without headstamps was also used.

To me, it seems that the .45 Model of 1906 cartridge is what was later referred to as the ".45 Special" and ".45 Frankford."
---------------------------------
Regarding the Model 1909 .45 cartridge, I have two Colt M1909 revolvers. I fire them with mild .45 Colt reloads (the cases having the small-diameter rim), and can verify that extraction difficulties occur. I have had a few instances in which the extractor slipped around the rim of a partially-withdrawn fired .45 Colt case during extraction. Just something to be aware of for most of us, but it could be catastrophic were it to happen during a combat reload while the Juramentados were attacking the ramparts.

 

[Skeetr57]

In DWalt's post #65 above, he references "History of Modern U. S. Military Small Arms Ammunition" by Hackley, Woodin, and Scranton. The first listed author is Col Frank Hackley who was the last commander of Frankford Arsenal, so I would take anything he said as authoritative.

 

[Skeetr57]

I was surprised to see that the drawing for the 1906 case called for a solid head design. I thought all pistol cartridges of that time period were balloon head cases.

 

[DWalt]

A note on R.S.Q. powder as used in the M1909 .45 cartridge. The early Frankford Arsenal production had problems with metering Bullseye, the result being some blown-up guns. They had a special bulk powder made up by Hercules called R.S.Q. (rescue, get it?) which filled the M1909 case. In a picture of it I found, it looks very much like a spherical powder rather than flake.

 

[Hondo44]

Quote in part from Ed Cornett's comment" The approx. one doz. extra .45 Special test frames were made up with zero prefix serial numbers , in the 080's range, and sent to VIPs, but most have .44 Special barrels & cylinders. Those 12 frames could not have been made for the 1907 tests.
They were all given out in 1906. The numbers were 088-099. I have included a picture of my Triple Lock, it is 088. The first one in the group of 12.

Don,

It's very interesting to me that your TL #088 is a five screw delivered in 1906. While TL regular production began with four screws (no trigger guard screw), one specifically is #2.

 

[StrawHat]

How about we resurface this thread and see if any new information exists on the cartridge or the revolvers.

Kevin

 

[Hondo44]

During the Board trials, there was a problem with a high misfire rate from the FA-manufactured ammunition. There is some indication that, as a result, commercially-manufactured ammuniton without headstamps was also used.

To me, it seems that the .45 Model of 1906 cartridge is what was later referred to as the ".45 Special" and ".45 Frankford."
---------------------------------
Regarding the Model 1909 .45 cartridge, I have two Colt M1909 revolvers. I fire them with mild .45 Colt reloads (the cases having the small-diameter rim), and can verify that extraction difficulties occur. I have had a few instances in which the extractor slipped around the rim of a partially-withdrawn fired .45 Colt case during extraction.

1. Correct, S&W ordered a production lot from UMC variously reported as 10,000 or 20,000 rounds because the FA ammo made both the S&W and Colt revolver submissions look bad. Supposedly they had a UMC head stamp.

2. Correct.

3. The procedure for that problem is to point the muzzle skyward and use one full stroke to extract cases.

 

[StrawHat]

I was surprised to see that the drawing for the 1906 case called for a solid head design. I thought all pistol cartridges of that time period were balloon head cases.

What we refer to as “balloon head cases” were originally termed solid head design and entirely different from the previous folded head design.

Kevin

 

[Donald Paul]

I'm glad that more people are confused by this then just me....

... me too. Too much popcorn when we were kids?

 

[Wrangler Rich]

I love resurrected threads! So much information from so far back in history. It is amazing what an Internet connection can glean.

Thanks for bringing it back.

WR

 

[StrawHat]

...Regarding the ".45 Special...It was developed at Frankford Arsenal beginning in 1905, and had a rimmed case 0.923" in length, a 230 grain cupronickel jacketed bullet (drawings show a hemispherical nose), and used 7.2 grains of Bullseye powder...

...The PDF contained velocity readings of from just under to just over 1,000fps. I don't think the govt was loading any ammo that fast at that time...

(I know, quit dragging up old threads. )

Both of these quotes indicate , to me, quite a bit of pressure. Considering the cylinders on these revolvers were not heat treated until 1917 at the request of the Government, I wonder if they gave any problems during the tests or subsequent shooting?

Kevin

 

[ddixie884]

I read somewhere else on the net that RSQ might have stood for ; powder ''Revolver Special Quality''. Of course you can read nearly anything on the net........

 

[StrawHat]

7.2 grains of Bullseye is a fair amount of pressure. Just curious as to how the cylinders were able to handle that considering the Government required heat treating for the 45ACP round.

Or am I overthinking this?

Kevin

 

[ddixie884]

That 7.2gr may very well have been of RSQ but someone here has located some info that said it was Bullseye. If RSQ was close in burn rate to Infallible or the later Unique it would be about right................

 

[Muley Gil]

This is DWalt's post #68:

"A note on R.S.Q. powder as used in the M1909 .45 cartridge. The early Frankford Arsenal production had problems with metering Bullseye, the result being some blown-up guns. They had a special bulk powder made up by Hercules called R.S.Q. (rescue, get it?) which filled the M1909 case. In a picture of it I found, it looks very much like a spherical powder rather than flake."

 

[StrawHat]

Trying to wrap my head around this round, the 45 S&W Special, aka 45 Frankford.

From kcwheel we learned the chamber specifies as measured in his revolver.

Here are some dimensions taken from Triple Lock SN 09. It is a pre-production item made for the army trials. It has a 6 1/2 inch barrel with no caliber markings. This gun was part of my brother's collection.

Headspace in gun: .055 (cylinder pressed forward)
Cylinder OD: 1.694
Clinder length: 1.580 (1917 cylinder is 1.535
chamber depth: .895
Chamber dia: .477
Throat dia of cyl: .454
The front of the chamber is tapered like any other rimmed cartridge chamber.

I will try to attach some pictures. The third round has no headstamp, all others have the FA 4 06.

Ken

…Chamber depth is from the rear of the cylinder to the step. There is no rim recess…
Ken

From Honda44, we are reminded of the similar 45 Cowboy Special.

As a Cowboy action shooter I was aware of a new cartridge called the Cowboy 45 Special which has the case length of 45 ACP (.895")…

Am I seeing it correctly, the the S&W Special is the length of the Cowboy Special plus the thickness of the rim? The CS is the length of the depth of the S&W Special chamber?

Somewhere in this thread, someone must have posted a case length for the S&W Special cartridge and I have missed it!

Kevin