I'm glad that more people are confused by this then just me....
The Army Tests the Triple Lock in 1907
- Thread starter TripleLock
- Start date
Of course the original Black Powder and subsequent Civilian Loading for .45 Colt was a 260-odd Grain Lead Bullet, and, right on to 1000 FPS when out of the longer Barrelled SAA.
And as others have iterated, this was down-loaded for Military applications to oblige the comforts of those Soldiers of I suppose smaller frame, who were to carry or sometimes fire the Revolvers.
Interesting that the 'Trials' appear to have wished to re-introduce a .45 Calibre Cartridge having Ballistics which appear to be on par with what the .45 Colt Cartridge had been, 30-odd years before.
And as others have iterated, this was down-loaded for Military applications to oblige the comforts of those Soldiers of I suppose smaller frame, who were to carry or sometimes fire the Revolvers.
Interesting that the 'Trials' appear to have wished to re-introduce a .45 Calibre Cartridge having Ballistics which appear to be on par with what the .45 Colt Cartridge had been, 30-odd years before.
Agreed, probably a classic example of when ideology gets a good dose of reality, i.e., the Philippines.
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What was the 45 Special cartridge chambered in S&W Triple Locks?
What's established so far:
Going back to Muley Gil's SCSW p158-159 reference it states "Pre-production TL in 45 Special caliber, serial # 09, actually thought to be chambered in 45 Frankfor[d] caliber built for U.S. government tests in 1906...The 45 Frankford was an experimental cartridge before the 45 ACP."
Smith & Wesson 1857-1945, by Neal & Jinks. Page 208 states:
"In 1908 or 1909 [S&W] seriously considered introducing a model that was to be called the "45 Special." This cartridge was designed for use in the 44 Hand Ejector 1st Model [New Century]. The cartridge was a revolver cartridge developed for military use at the Frankford Arsenal."
In 1909 the Frankford Arsenal produced .45 Revolver Ball Cartridges Model 1909. They were never made commercially.
REF: .45 Colt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Box for sale here: WTS: Pristine Frankford Arsenal Box Of Model 1909 .45 Revolver Ball Cartridges
Essentially these were 45 Colt cartridges with standard primers, same overall length with a larger diameter rim made to between .536" and .540" to more reliably eject in DA revolvers. 'Balloon' head 45 Colt rims of the time were .500" -.505" and 45 Schofield rims were .522".
Both pictured in the below link and referred to as 45 Frankford Cartridges that were not involved in the Army Trials of 1906-7. And neither of which are the 45 S&W Special/45 Frankford. This also answers the correct Frankford spelling issue.
File:Colt .45 LC Cartridges.JPG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In 1906 various experimental 45 auto rounds were being developed as were the pistols for them. Both rimless and SEMI-RIMMED rounds were developed. REF: The Frankford Arsenal experimental 1906 FA 4 06, .45 caliber round.
Question:
Considering the above established facts, which then was "The 45 Frankford [that S&W referred to as the 45 Special] was an experimental cartridge before the 45 ACP" as stated in the SCSW?
The Frankford Arsenal 1909 .45 Revolver Ball Cartridge was certainly not produced in 1909 without prior experimentation and seems to be the most likely candidate chambered in the Triple Lock (as the 45 special) and used in the 1906-7 U.S. Trials.
Maybe someone who owns one of the TLs in 45 Spl or that can communicate with someone who does, could confirm the chamber dimensions.
What's established so far:
Going back to Muley Gil's SCSW p158-159 reference it states "Pre-production TL in 45 Special caliber, serial # 09, actually thought to be chambered in 45 Frankfor[d] caliber built for U.S. government tests in 1906...The 45 Frankford was an experimental cartridge before the 45 ACP."
Smith & Wesson 1857-1945, by Neal & Jinks. Page 208 states:
"In 1908 or 1909 [S&W] seriously considered introducing a model that was to be called the "45 Special." This cartridge was designed for use in the 44 Hand Ejector 1st Model [New Century]. The cartridge was a revolver cartridge developed for military use at the Frankford Arsenal."
In 1909 the Frankford Arsenal produced .45 Revolver Ball Cartridges Model 1909. They were never made commercially.
REF: .45 Colt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Box for sale here: WTS: Pristine Frankford Arsenal Box Of Model 1909 .45 Revolver Ball Cartridges
Essentially these were 45 Colt cartridges with standard primers, same overall length with a larger diameter rim made to between .536" and .540" to more reliably eject in DA revolvers. 'Balloon' head 45 Colt rims of the time were .500" -.505" and 45 Schofield rims were .522".
Both pictured in the below link and referred to as 45 Frankford Cartridges that were not involved in the Army Trials of 1906-7. And neither of which are the 45 S&W Special/45 Frankford. This also answers the correct Frankford spelling issue.
File:Colt .45 LC Cartridges.JPG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In 1906 various experimental 45 auto rounds were being developed as were the pistols for them. Both rimless and SEMI-RIMMED rounds were developed. REF: The Frankford Arsenal experimental 1906 FA 4 06, .45 caliber round.
Question:
Considering the above established facts, which then was "The 45 Frankford [that S&W referred to as the 45 Special] was an experimental cartridge before the 45 ACP" as stated in the SCSW?
The Frankford Arsenal 1909 .45 Revolver Ball Cartridge was certainly not produced in 1909 without prior experimentation and seems to be the most likely candidate chambered in the Triple Lock (as the 45 special) and used in the 1906-7 U.S. Trials.
Maybe someone who owns one of the TLs in 45 Spl or that can communicate with someone who does, could confirm the chamber dimensions.
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This thread....
...Is why I love this place. I don't post a lot. I do however spend lots & lots of time here, and this thread is an example of why. There is SO MUCH information here it literally boggles the mind ( at least my mind) sometimes. To Lee & staff, thank you for providing a venue such as this, I appreciate and applaude your efforts. Fellow members, thank you for participating in the free exchange of information. We are all better off when we learn from one another. I do love this place and good day to all.
...Is why I love this place. I don't post a lot. I do however spend lots & lots of time here, and this thread is an example of why. There is SO MUCH information here it literally boggles the mind ( at least my mind) sometimes. To Lee & staff, thank you for providing a venue such as this, I appreciate and applaude your efforts. Fellow members, thank you for participating in the free exchange of information. We are all better off when we learn from one another. I do love this place and good day to all.
.45 US Government
My example of this cartridge is headstamped FA 4 06. Specs are:
Rim dia. .526
rim thickness .042
case dia. .470
case length .914
Overall length 1.296
cupronickle jacketed bullet dia. .452
Made only in 1905 and 1906, there were both rimmed and rimless cases.
In Charles R. Suydam's US Cartridges and their handguns it is stated that the charge is 6.9 grains of RSQ powder.
Ken
My example of this cartridge is headstamped FA 4 06. Specs are:
Rim dia. .526
rim thickness .042
case dia. .470
case length .914
Overall length 1.296
cupronickle jacketed bullet dia. .452
Made only in 1905 and 1906, there were both rimmed and rimless cases.
In Charles R. Suydam's US Cartridges and their handguns it is stated that the charge is 6.9 grains of RSQ powder.
Ken
DWalt
Member
At this point, I'm going to postulate that the .45 Frankford and the .45 Special are probably the same cartridge, and IF it ever existed, it was most likely a limited-run prototype of the later Model 1909 .45 revolver round adopted for Army use in the Colt New Service revolver.
Hondo44 and kcwheel, thank you both for the precise and insightful info. This is a topic I have had an interest in for awhile.
DWalt
Member
I have found that in 1906, Frankford Arsenal was directed to produce 10,000 rounds each of .45 ammunition, for both pistols and revolvers submitted to the Army pistol trials (both S&W and Colt submitted .45 DA revolvers). Unfortunately, details are lacking regarding exactly what these .45 revolver rounds made by FA looked like. There are rimmed .45 revolver rounds headstamped FA 4 06 known, but whether these are the revolver rounds made by FA for the 1907 trials has not been established, and even if so, are they any different from the .45 S&W/Schofield Government cartridges? They don't appear to be, and at that time there would have been no reason for them to be anything other than the same .45 round that FA had always produced. More to come.
The .45 S&W/Schofield Government cartridges that I have headstamped F 4 87 are dimensioned as follows:
Rim dia. .522 w/o bevel for semi-auto pistol extraction
rim thickness .055
case dia. .470
case length 1.102
Overall length 1.417
Lead bullet dia. .450-2
Quite different from the FA 4 06 round described above.
This is the final configuration of this Frankford round. It has the latest improvements with the crimped-in internal Benet primer of the original 1875 Schof/Frankford round replaced with a standard Boxer external primer.
If Frankford was experimenting with a combination cartridge for both revolver and pistol (which I doubt), the rimmed FA 4 06 may have been the 'experimental' round in question. Both revolvers and semi-auto pistols were included in the 1907 trials. But the 45 S&W/Schofield Government cartridge was only suitable for revolver, it would not have been suitable for semi-auto pistol also still in an early experimental stage and the main reason for the need of a new cartridge. The 45 S&W/Schofield Government was a long time produced round already in inventory at the time and therefore not an 'experimental' round nor would there be a need to specially produce 10,000 rounds of it.
A 45 Special chambered TL chamber dimension would be extremely helpful.
Rim dia. .522 w/o bevel for semi-auto pistol extraction
rim thickness .055
case dia. .470
case length 1.102
Overall length 1.417
Lead bullet dia. .450-2
Quite different from the FA 4 06 round described above.
This is the final configuration of this Frankford round. It has the latest improvements with the crimped-in internal Benet primer of the original 1875 Schof/Frankford round replaced with a standard Boxer external primer.
If Frankford was experimenting with a combination cartridge for both revolver and pistol (which I doubt), the rimmed FA 4 06 may have been the 'experimental' round in question. Both revolvers and semi-auto pistols were included in the 1907 trials. But the 45 S&W/Schofield Government cartridge was only suitable for revolver, it would not have been suitable for semi-auto pistol also still in an early experimental stage and the main reason for the need of a new cartridge. The 45 S&W/Schofield Government was a long time produced round already in inventory at the time and therefore not an 'experimental' round nor would there be a need to specially produce 10,000 rounds of it.
A 45 Special chambered TL chamber dimension would be extremely helpful.
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DWalt
Member
I've verified that the information supplied by kcwheel is correct:
F A 4 06 & with punch crimps = CN jacketed bullet, .528" rim, .472" head, .918" case length, .451" bullet at mouth, 1.299" OAL & 350.0 grains total weight.
It seems clear that this is indeed the .45 "Experimental" (or Frankford, or S&W Special) revolver round manufactured by FA for test use in the S&W and Colt revolvers included in the 1907 pistol trials. It would seem the differences in the round from the old original .45 Government (Schofield, M1877) round are in the use of smokeless powder instead of black powder, a slightly shorter case (which would be more efficient with smokeless powder), and a jacketed bullet rather than lead. I would not be surprised that extraction problems while using this cartridge were experienced in the trials, leading to the later adoption of the Model 1909 cartridge having a larger rim and a longer case.
F A 4 06 & with punch crimps = CN jacketed bullet, .528" rim, .472" head, .918" case length, .451" bullet at mouth, 1.299" OAL & 350.0 grains total weight.
It seems clear that this is indeed the .45 "Experimental" (or Frankford, or S&W Special) revolver round manufactured by FA for test use in the S&W and Colt revolvers included in the 1907 pistol trials. It would seem the differences in the round from the old original .45 Government (Schofield, M1877) round are in the use of smokeless powder instead of black powder, a slightly shorter case (which would be more efficient with smokeless powder), and a jacketed bullet rather than lead. I would not be surprised that extraction problems while using this cartridge were experienced in the trials, leading to the later adoption of the Model 1909 cartridge having a larger rim and a longer case.
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It's definietly being narrowed down. My only doubts are that no extraction problems were identified in the Trials report which was quite specific about documenting every little detail.
Although the .526-.528" rim diameter was a an improvement over the .45 Colt .510" and Schofield .522" rim diameters. But still however Frankford did see a need to go to the .536-.540 rim in their .45 1909 cartridge for reliable ejection in the Colt New Service.
Although the .526-.528" rim diameter was a an improvement over the .45 Colt .510" and Schofield .522" rim diameters. But still however Frankford did see a need to go to the .536-.540 rim in their .45 1909 cartridge for reliable ejection in the Colt New Service.
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DWalt
Member
Quite possibly true, but as the report says nothing specific, good or bad, about loading and ejection of the revolver, we can't know for certain. I still have ejection problems occasionally even with modern DA revolvers and ammunition so I imagine they did back then also. If so, maybe it wasn't considered worthy of mention.
I have seen military documentation stating that some of the complaints with the FA 06 cartridge were what was considered severe blast and recoil.
another problem was bullets being pulled by their inertia. Some examples of the cartridge even have stab crimps in an attempt to stop their movement. I have personally seen four versions of the round. Some have a canelure, some are not head stamped at all, and one sample has an almost perfectly hemispherical nose. There were no comments on ejection problems.
Ken
another problem was bullets being pulled by their inertia. Some examples of the cartridge even have stab crimps in an attempt to stop their movement. I have personally seen four versions of the round. Some have a canelure, some are not head stamped at all, and one sample has an almost perfectly hemispherical nose. There were no comments on ejection problems.
Ken
Seems like a good time for someone to post some comparative photos of these various .45 cal. rounds.
Bob
Hi Bob,
The FA 4-06 is shown in the link of my post #24. The 1909 is not but just a 45 Colt w/larger rim. And of course we don't know for sure which or if any of them are the elusive 45 S&W Special-Frankford.
Sure would like a Triple Lock 45 Special chamber dimension.
DWalt
Member
Unless the mystery .45 Special/Frankford cartridge (if such a thing even exists apart from the 1906 FA .45 "Experimental" revolver cartridge production) is dimensionally far different from the .45 S&W/Schofield or the .45 Colt, why wouldn't both Colt and S&W have just chambered their trial submission revolvers in .45 Colt? I guess it is possible they did that, and then marked the barrel as .45 Special (or whatever), if it was marked distinctively at all. Without seeing either a S&W or Colt from the trial, or a good photo thereof, or finding some reliable documentation, all that remains is curiosity.
The full 1907 Army trials report can be found here: http://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/manuals/1907pistoltrials.pdf
Unfortunately, there is virtually no detail provided in it regarding exactly what the specifications and dimensions of ammunition used during the trial was. There are photos of all of the handguns used in the trial but they are not of adequate quality to see any details of markings. It is notable that the board found the Colt New Service preferable to the S&W TL, and the recommendation was made that the Colt NS revolver be adopted in Caliber .45 for service (as a stopgap until the technology of autopistols could be further developed) and supplied to the forces in the Philippines. This of course was done shortly thereafter. We all know that this revolver was chambered only in .45 Colt with a larger diameter rim, and not in the elusive .45 S&W Special or .45 Frankford.
Unless there is something I have completely overlooked, I continue to believe that the .45 S&W Special and the .45 Frankford were non-official descriptors of the .45 "Experimental" revolver ammunition made up for the 1907 trials by FA, and it's unlikely that any revolvers so-marked by the factory ever existed.
I noticed that there is a member here with the handle of Opoefc who claimed in one of his postings to have one of the 1907 trial TLs. If someone knows him, maybe he could cut through the doubt about the TL chamberings.
The full 1907 Army trials report can be found here: http://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/manuals/1907pistoltrials.pdf
Unfortunately, there is virtually no detail provided in it regarding exactly what the specifications and dimensions of ammunition used during the trial was. There are photos of all of the handguns used in the trial but they are not of adequate quality to see any details of markings. It is notable that the board found the Colt New Service preferable to the S&W TL, and the recommendation was made that the Colt NS revolver be adopted in Caliber .45 for service (as a stopgap until the technology of autopistols could be further developed) and supplied to the forces in the Philippines. This of course was done shortly thereafter. We all know that this revolver was chambered only in .45 Colt with a larger diameter rim, and not in the elusive .45 S&W Special or .45 Frankford.
Unless there is something I have completely overlooked, I continue to believe that the .45 S&W Special and the .45 Frankford were non-official descriptors of the .45 "Experimental" revolver ammunition made up for the 1907 trials by FA, and it's unlikely that any revolvers so-marked by the factory ever existed.
I noticed that there is a member here with the handle of Opoefc who claimed in one of his postings to have one of the 1907 trial TLs. If someone knows him, maybe he could cut through the doubt about the TL chamberings.
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I don't think Opoefc has a Trial Gun, I think he knows a collector who has one complete example and one incomplete frame. I asked about the .45spl. several years ago and he shared some knowledge with me on this board. I could be wrong I usually am.
DWalt
Member
Well, at least that's a start, knowing that one exists. It is known that a very small number of 1st Model TLs were originally chambered in .45 Colt, and I'd bet the early ones that went to the trial also were.
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OP
TripleLock
Member
.45 Model of 1906 Ammunition
The so-called "Cal. .45 Ball, Model of 1906" was developed in late 1905 by Frankford Arsenal for use in testing revolvers submitted for the Army trials that began in 1906. The case was rimmed, 0.923" in length, and was loaded with a 230-grain cupro-nickel jacketed round-nose bullet over 7.2 grains of Bullseye smokeless powder. The muzzle velocity was 800 fps.
10,000 rounds were ordered manufactured for the trials. The bulk of the casings were manufactured in April 1906, with most of the order being completed as loaded rounds by July of that year. The only reported headstamp is "F A 4 06". Evidently, both cannelured and uncannelured cases were made, with the cannelure being located on the case just behind the base of the bullet where it served to control seating depth.
It would seem that there was never any commercial production of this ammo, but the Union Metallic Cartridge Company provided 5000 rounds to Smith & wesson in June of 1906.
For the semi-autos tested in the Army trials, there was a similar rimless cartridge, with a case length of 0.918" (also reported as 0.923"), loaded with the same 230-grain bullet as the revolver ammunition, and to the same muzzle velocity.
Attached is a drawing of the two varieties of cartridges used in the revolver tests.
TL
The so-called "Cal. .45 Ball, Model of 1906" was developed in late 1905 by Frankford Arsenal for use in testing revolvers submitted for the Army trials that began in 1906. The case was rimmed, 0.923" in length, and was loaded with a 230-grain cupro-nickel jacketed round-nose bullet over 7.2 grains of Bullseye smokeless powder. The muzzle velocity was 800 fps.
10,000 rounds were ordered manufactured for the trials. The bulk of the casings were manufactured in April 1906, with most of the order being completed as loaded rounds by July of that year. The only reported headstamp is "F A 4 06". Evidently, both cannelured and uncannelured cases were made, with the cannelure being located on the case just behind the base of the bullet where it served to control seating depth.
It would seem that there was never any commercial production of this ammo, but the Union Metallic Cartridge Company provided 5000 rounds to Smith & wesson in June of 1906.
For the semi-autos tested in the Army trials, there was a similar rimless cartridge, with a case length of 0.918" (also reported as 0.923"), loaded with the same 230-grain bullet as the revolver ammunition, and to the same muzzle velocity.
Attached is a drawing of the two varieties of cartridges used in the revolver tests.
TL
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