Letter sent to Obama on UN gun treaty

[StatesRightist]

The next person to use the term FUD needs jack slapped.......redundant and annoying just begins to cover it on this thread.

 

[ladder13]

F&F was not a continuation of Gunrunner. Gunrunner was to "deny, stem the flow, suppress" not facilitate. Gunrunner had much tighter controls than F&F which apparently had no tracing controls in place.

From the ATF fact sheet at the US Embassy in Mexico

http://www.usembassy-mexico.gov/eng/eborders.html

BORDERS AND LAW ENFORCEMENT

Project Gunrunner

ATF Fact Sheet


ATF is deploying its resources strategically on the Southwest Border to deny firearms, the "tools of the trade," to criminal organizations in Mexico and along the border, and to combat firearms-related violence affecting communities on both sides of the border. In partnership with other U.S. agencies and with the Government of Mexico, ATF refined its Southwest Border strategy. ATF developed Project Gunrunner to stem the flow of firearms into Mexico and thereby deprive the narcotics cartels of weapons. The initiative seeks to focus ATF's investigative, intelligence and training resources to suppress the firearms trafficking to Mexico and stem the firearms-related violence on both sides of the border.
Firearms tracing, in particular the expansion of the eTrace firearms tracing system, is a critical component of Project Gunrunner in Mexico. ATF recently deployed eTrace technology in U.S. consulates in Monterrey, Hermosillo and Guadalajara, with six additional deployments to the remaining U.S. consulates in Mexico scheduled by March 2008. ATF has conducted discussions with the government of Mexico regarding the decentralization of the firearms tracing process to deploy Spanish-language eTrace to other Mexico agencies.
In the past two years, ATF has seized thousands of firearms headed to Mexico. Trends indicate the firearms illegally crossing the U.S.-Mexico border are becoming more powerful. ATF has analyzed firearms seizures in Mexico from FY 2005-07 and identified the following weapons most commonly used by drug traffickers:
· 9mm pistols;
· .38 Super pistols;
· 5.7mm pistols;
· .45-caliber pistols;
· AR-15 type rifles; and
· AK-47 type rifles.
- more -
Most of the firearms violence in Mexico is perpetrated by drug trafficking organizations (DTOs) who are vying for control of drug trafficking routes to the United States and engaging in turf battles for disputed distribution territories. Hundreds of Mexican citizens and law enforcement personnel have become casualties of the firearms-related violence. DTOs operating in Mexico rely on firearms suppliers to enforce and maintain their illicit narcotics operations. Intelligence indicates these criminal organizations have tasked their money laundering, distribution and transportation infrastructures reaching into the United States to acquire firearms and ammunition. These Mexican DTO infrastructures have become the leading gun trafficking organizations operating in the southwest U.S.
ATF has dedicated approximately 100 special agents and 25 industry operations investigators to the SWB initiative over the past two years. ATF has recently assigned special agents to Las Cruces, N.M., and Yuma, Ariz. These assignments are part of a broad plan to increase the strategic coverage and disrupt the firearms trafficking corridors operating along the border.
Cases referred for prosecution under Project Gunrunner.
FY 2006 Cases w/Defendants – 122 Defendants referred for prosecution- 306
FY 2007 Cases w/Defendants – 187 Defendants referred for prosecution- 465
Special agents have been deployed to Monterrey to support the work of the attachés in the ATF Mexico Office and assist Mexican authorities in their fight against firearms related violence. Three additional ATF intelligence research specialists and one investigative analyst are planned for the El Paso Intelligence Center (EPIC) to support Project Gunrunner, along with one intelligence research specialist in each of the four field divisions on the southwest border (Phoenix, Dallas, Houston and Los Angeles).
Firearm tracing intelligence is critical because it allows ATF and its partners to identify trafficking corridors, patterns and schemes as well as traffickers and their accomplices. Firearms tracing helps identify firearms straw purchasers, the traffickers, trafficking networks and patterns, thus allowing law enforcement to target and dismantle the infrastructure supplying firearms to the DTOs in Mexico.
ATF conducts firearms seminars with federal firearms licensees, commonly referred to as licensed gun dealers, to educate the firearms industry on straw purchasers and gun trafficking. More than 3,700 industry members attended outreach events in SWB divisions in FY 2007

 

[ladder13]

Project Gunrunner was a multinational effort involving the use of eTrace, a Web-based program, "that provides for the electronic exchange of traced firearm data in a secure internet-based environment."
Contrarily, as the whole world now knows, Operation Fast & Furious increased cross-border firearms trafficking to the extent that 2,000 dangerous, lethal weapons went missing entirely as no method for tracking them was employed. And why was that?

 

[McBear]

The next person to use the term FUD needs jack slapped.......redundant and annoying just begins to cover it on this thread.

Humorously the term started with IBM in the 1960s. Their sales folks would convince folks that without IBM "you just never know..." So FUD was born. It changed in the 1990s to Fear, Uncertainty, Confusion and Dread but the acronym can be considered offensive to some.

Then again, suggesting that people are either preaching it or falling for it can also be considered offensive to some. It's a conundrum.

 

[redlevel]

Other than the obvious little edit cuts in there...let's just look at what the Administration HAS ACTUALLY DONE. That would be zero.

So, we have a 1 minute clip where Holder references an off camera question, answers it honestly and...four years later there has been zero on it. Gotta admit...doing nothing is really a sneaky way to get things done.

Are you trying to tell us this is a pro-gun administration? Do you deny that Eric Holder is blatantly anti-gun? As I stated earlier, the Obama Administration has not pushed for gun control because it isn't politically expedient. That might change in a lame-duck term. I am not exactly thrilled with the Republican nominee, but I believe his feet can be held to the fire. Thank God for the NRA.

The assertion that F&F was just an extension of the 2006 Gunwalker or Gunrunner op is patently false. It is a typical fallback, though, for Obama supporters . . . "It was all Bush's fault."
Two obvious differences: 1. The Mexican Government was aware of and a party to the Bush Administration op. 2. No US law enforcement agents were killed with guns allowed across the border in the Bush op.

Getting back to the original premise of this thread. Thank God that it requires 67 "yea" votes in the US Senate to ratify a treaty. It ain't going to happen.

 

[McBear]

Project Gunrunner was a multinational effort involving the use of eTrace, a Web-based program, "that provides for the electronic exchange of traced firearm data in a secure internet-based environment."
Contrarily, as the whole world now knows, Operation Fast & Furious increased cross-border firearms trafficking to the extent that 2,000 dangerous, lethal weapons went missing entirely as no method for tracking them was employed. And why was that?

Gunrunner was multifaceted, and what you pasted was certainly part of it. So was some of the baiting that F&F became. No matter who did it, it was a p***poorly organized and managed program. Should anyone expect me to defend Holder's kids for that, they will be waiting an excruciatingly long time. But the point, the genesis of F&F had already begun, and continued through two administrations. I think they meant well but cowboy'd the execution very poorly.

 

[McBear]

Are you trying to tell us this is a pro-gun administration? Do you deny that Eric Holder is blatantly anti-gun? As I stated earlier, the Obama Administration has not pushed for gun control because it isn't politically expedient. That might change in a lame-duck term. I am not exactly thrilled with the Republican nominee, but I believe his feet can be held to the fire. Thank God for the NRA.

The assertion that F&F was just an extension of the 2006 Gunwalker or Gunrunner op is patently false. It is a typical fallback, though, for Obama supporters . . . "It was all Bush's fault."
Two obvious differences: 1. The Mexican Government was aware of and a party to the Bush Administration op. 2. No US law enforcement agents were killed with guns allowed across the border in the Bush op.

Getting back to the original premise of this thread. Thank God that it requires 67 "yea" votes in the US Senate to ratify a treaty. It ain't going to happen.

No, I have never once said this Administration is pro gun. On many occasions, on different threads I have mentioned that there are 256 shades of gray between black and white.

As for "It's Bush's fault"...no, it's a matter of the Justice Department, mid level making good, hard decisions that just didn't get executed well. They happened to start in 2006. That doesn't make it Bush's fault any more than it makes it Obama's. Dates are dates...they don't hold blame, they are just stakes in the ground of history.

Trying to make a political point from a Border Patrol agent's death seems unseemly and opportunistic and not particularly relevant. I don't imagine it would be brought up if it was from an earlier sale. Again we are back to dates.

 

[McBear]

Getting back to the original premise of this thread. Thank God that it requires 67 "yea" votes in the US Senate to ratify a treaty. It ain't going to happen.

Yes, you are likely correct. And that will work fine until weapons are sold from a friendly government to bad guys and our guys get killed when there may have been a way around it.

In an asymmetrical global war against terror the winner is never going to be the country with "superior firepower". Shock and Awe, and the decade that followed proved that. It is going to be the thousand little things, done by dozens of countries that begin to solve that global puzzle. It would be a shame to vote to lose a tool just because Obama was for it and those against it were getting spun political information.

But hey, anything for politics...that's what is important.

 

[redlevel]

Trying to make a political point from a Border Patrol agent's death seems unseemly and opportunistic and not particularly relevant. I don't imagine it would be brought up if it was from an earlier sale. Again we are back to dates.

Oh, I'm sure it would have been brought up.

How many political points were made about combat deaths during Bush's term? Whether one was pro or con, the deaths belonged to Bush because they happened on his watch. Good war or bad, Bush was responsible.

The death of the agent belongs to Obama/Holder because it happened on their watch, as a result of their (not Bush's) policies. They refuse to accept responsibility. That is what is unseemly to some of us. Some may think the death of a US BP Agent is "not particularly relevant." I'm not one of those people.

 

[nipster]

NRA video editing trickery... just making stuff up.

An edited video, from years ago, never acted on.

Again, and none of you have done anything to prove otherwise. Please give examples of this administration doing ANYTHING anti-gun.

Anything concrete, not just some edited videos, third person quotes from anti-gun groups (Brady)

Here's an Obama pro-gun thing for you to chew on

Obama Set to Loosen Regs for US Firearms Exports | The Truth About GunsThe Truth About Guns

 

[ladder13]

Other than the obvious little edit cuts in there...

You're telling us the guy in the Holder mask isn't saying what we think he's saying?

 

[ladder13]

An edited video, from years ago, never acted on.

Again, and none of you have done anything to prove otherwise. Please give examples of this administration doing ANYTHING anti-gun.

Anything concrete, not just some edited videos, third person quotes from anti-gun groups (Brady)

Here's an Obama pro-gun thing for you to chew on

Obama Set to Loosen Regs for US Firearms Exports | The Truth About GunsThe Truth About Guns

That's great for our EXPORTS(assuming these weapons don't find their way into terrorists hands), and a bone thrown to the Freedom Group(Remington) for winning a contract to supply US forces. I wonder how Feinstein and Boxer feel about 50 cal's exported to other countries since they don't want Americans to own them. They and their comrades always say 50 cal's could be used to take down US airliners. Don't see how the EXPORTS benefit domestic gun owners.
When are the millions of M1 carbines that reside in Korea going to be IMPORTED for the benefit of US gun owners?

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Again, and none of you have done anything to prove otherwise. Please give examples of this administration doing ANYTHING anti-gun.

Can't change intent and motives, but opportunity can be denied. Opposition to the treaty will deny opportunity.

At the end of this administration I hope to join you in posting that there was never any anti-gun legislation enacted, and I support the NRA to help them achieve this goal.

 

[ladder13]

Many well educated pundits, _______, multiple congressmen, Ex-Presidents and the former US ambassador to the UN all think it's a good idea....

Paul Krugman, Joe Klein, Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, Barbara Boxer, Jimmah Carter? Certainly not John Bolton.

 

[StatesRightist]

I get it. Pay no attention to the Administration's past voting record against guns and his F NRA rating in both Illinois and D.C. He's suddenly become pro-gun, it was an sacred vision for him, he saw Allah and everything. The whole debate on whether he is an Anti or not is so farcical it's not even funny, yet let's trust him and his Admin with either the UN treaty or our 2nd Amendment Rights.......

Those arguing we're OK and we can trust the Administration are doing so for partisan reasons, there is no logic in their argument, theory aside, past records prove otherwise.

 

[IndianaDave]

Food for thought from Forbes magazine. With all due respect, and bearing in mind we here are on the same side, trusting the UN and our administration can be dangerously naive. They are clever enough to use deception to achieve their goals. As always, watch out for the "fine print".

U.N. Agreement Should Have All Gun Owners Up In Arms - Forbes

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

NO, NO, NO. That is just pure Fear, Uncertainty and Dread...nothing else. There is zero to support that premise.

I see it differently. As an example, I think the video linked earlier (AWB Holder) makes quite clear the position of this administration-- ban more guns domestically. That this administration would manipulate the enforcement of an international treaty to meet that end is a reasonable argument Bolton makes, IMO.

I'm curious if you consider making the AWB permanent an infringement on the right to keep and bear arms.

 

[nipster]

You're telling us the guy in the Holder mask isn't saying what we think he's saying?

Kind of like the edited zimmerman 911 tapes, perspective and context can be changed by editing

That said, holder a complete moron and should be removed for other things he has done. This 3+ year old video notwithstanding

 

[redlevel]

It is a shame that 130 congresscritters didn't take the time to actually read the language within the Arms Trade Treaty. If they had they would have seen the very specific language that says...

"Respect for the sovereignty of state-parties and non-interference with "internal affairs" or "constitutional provisions;"

Neither you nor I know what the final draft of the treaty will contain. It hasn't been finalized yet. That is the process that is taking place right now.

You might be willing to trust Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, Amnesty International, the EU, and a myriad of small nation-states to look out for the rights of gun owners in the United States in the language of a Ty that might emerge from the conference now happening. I am not willing to do so.

Read the following.
http://www.nmun.org/ny12_downloads/ny12_committee_guides/peace_security/ATT-1.pdf

I see no language or proposals that would guarantee the rights of US gun owners. I see plenty of room for chicanery, a possibility of introduction of legislation by anti-gun legislators so that we might remain "in compliance" with the treaty.

Here is a sample of language from the "PrepCom" meeting in February.
"Robust" is one word that has been used both by UN Member States and by UN Agency Chiefs, including the heads of the UN High Commission for Refugees, the United Nations Development Programme, and the United Nations Children's Fund, to describe what they would like to see in the final ATT.23 Throughout February 2012, Member States such as Ghana, the Bahamas, Uruguay, Mexico, Colombia, Trinidad and Tobago, along with other Member States and the UN General Assembly have all used the term "robust" to help describe what they want the ATT to be.24 The UN Agency Chiefs define a robust ATT to include all conventional weapons, with an emphasis on ammunitions.25 They also believe that the text of the final ATT must ensure that there are no loopholes regarding any types of weapons transport.26 A robust treaty would include a comprehensive list of weapons, including both small and large arms, and would list all of the types of transfers banned, including those that encourage "criminality, terrorism, and corruption.

To me, "all conventional weapons" means just that. Sporting firearms, 75 year-old S&W revolvers, .22 rifles, etc. "any types of weapons transport" doesn't seem to leave out domestic movement, and "a comprehensive list" could easily suggest registration to an anti-gun legislator.

I absolutely do not trust the UN, nor do I trust the State Department under Clinton and Obama to refuse to sign a Ty that could possibly infringe on our rights.

 

[McBear]

Oh, I'm sure it would have been brought up.

How many political points were made about combat deaths during Bush's term? Whether one was pro or con, the deaths belonged to Bush because they happened on his watch. Good war or bad, Bush was responsible.

The death of the agent belongs to Obama/Holder because it happened on their watch, as a result of their (not Bush's) policies. They refuse to accept responsibility. That is what is unseemly to some of us. Some may think the death of a US BP Agent is "not particularly relevant." I'm not one of those people.

The death is very relevant. A political point utilizing it is not. Therein lies the difference.

If we begin down that road, once an innocent person dies due to a flawed no knock warrant or because of a bad behaving police officer or soldier then it would be come OK to politicized the entire process of either. It is not. Isolated incidences do not represent the whole.