Marines Going Back to Colt 1911 for Sidearm

[jsimmons]

what kind of tweaking did you do to your RIA ?

I started with a FS Tactical that was shooting 8-inch groups at 25 yards, and replaced the following parts (myself, no gunsmith was involved):

- FLGR - went to a standard Colt guide rod (because I don't care for FLGR)
- Recoil spring - went with a Sprinco 16-pound spring (more consstent operation)
- The ambi-safety - went to a standard Colt safety (I don't need an ambi-safety)
- Barrel/bushing - installed a StormLake stainless drop-in kit
- Trigger - adjustable match trigger from Greider Precision
- Grips - changed to plain checkered grips (the ones that came on the gun were smooth and completely useless.

I went from 8-inch groups at 25 yards to 2-inch groups at the same distance. The Springer is also a sub-2-inch gun, but the group isn't quite as tight as the RIA. For the record, I sent the Springer to the Springfield Custom Shop, for accurizing and reliability mods.

I think the RIA ended up a better pistol than the Springer.

 

[oneyeopn]

Its, "Marine Corps", not Corp. Give me fifty!

I got it right in the body of the story but I gave you 50 and fixed it...LOL

 

[gkitch]

Friends, we (USMC) have been using the 1911 since the 80s..but only for our MEUSOC and SOCOM Marines who receive highly intensive training in their use. Most Marines still carry the Beretta. Up until now the MEUSOC pistols were custom made in small quantities via our Precision Wpns Section at Quantico. The open purchase of the Colt puts more 1911s readily available...but those custom MEUSOC pistols were absolutely stunning. Bar-Sto bbl, Noval Sights, Cylinder & Slide trigger and all hand fitted.

 

[M29since14]

Hopefully the new Colt pistols will be as well made.

 

[gkitch]

Hopefully the new Colt pistols will be as well made.

I'm sure the Colts will be excellent weapons, but they will not quite compare to the MEUSOCs of old. It always facsinated me that we were literally putting high-end custom carry pistols in the hands of young men to go in harm's way. The PWS at Quantico also produced the M40 Sniper rifles, the short-lived SAMR (Squad Advanced Marksmanship Rifle), and all of the competition weapons used by the shooting teams. The PWS essentially purchases top-drawer components and builds first rate custom weapons for Marines.

 

[M29since14]

Gkitch, I am curious, if you happen to know, what were the requirements for the hand-built pistols? Were they hand-built to achieve a certain accuracy requirement, or something else? Do you know anything about the requirements for the Colt pistol?

 

[sigp220.45]

Uh-oh..........

Looks like trouble in Colt Paradise:

Test Article Photos of MARSOC Winning Colt Rail Guns - Soldier Systems

The pics look pretty bad. Also, don't read the comments down below if salty language bothers you.

 

[Bat Guano]

Stevens at pages 145-148 states that the NAACO "Brigadier", an upscaled and very modified BHP design, was a one-off piece chambered for the .45 NAACO cartridge (much like the .45 Win. Magnum). Even with an alloy frame it weighed in at 51 ounces loaded.

Not exactly a commercial success.

 

[mamasfatty]

Looks like trouble in Colt Paradise:

Test Article Photos of MARSOC Winning Colt Rail Guns - Soldier Systems

The pics look pretty bad. Also, don't read the comments down below if salty language bothers you.

if those pictures are real,,that is a serious issue that needs to be delt with asap! 12000 rounds is more than most of us will ever shoot,but 12000 rounds from a duty gun isnt ****.....

 

[shawn mccarver]

Well maybe the Marines can settle the cocked and locked controversy once and for all.

What controversy is that? There is no controversy. "Condition One and only."

 

[shawn mccarver]

I'm sure the Colts will be excellent weapons, but they will not quite compare to the MEUSOCs of old. It always facsinated me that we were literally putting high-end custom carry pistols in the hands of young men to go in harm's way. The PWS at Quantico also produced the M40 Sniper rifles, the short-lived SAMR (Squad Advanced Marksmanship Rifle), and all of the competition weapons used by the shooting teams. The PWS essentially purchases top-drawer components and builds first rate custom weapons for Marines.

The Marine Corps certainly deserves first rate weapons, as do all our troops! Thank you for your service!!

 

[shawn mccarver]

Looks like trouble in Colt Paradise:

Test Article Photos of MARSOC Winning Colt Rail Guns - Soldier Systems

The pics look pretty bad. Also, don't read the comments down below if salty language bothers you.

According to one article, the frame issues surfaced on only a few of the test pistols, and the testers were well aware. They still awarded the contract to Colt. Makes me wonder what the competitors pistols looked like after the endurance testing!

 

[jkc]

I read an article on these bid prices, and as a rule of thumb, it seems that if you divide total contract amount by the number of pieces, which is what you have done to reach the $1,875.00 figure, to get the cost per piece, divide again by 3 to get a rough idea of the actual cost per piece, which is in the case a pistol.

The remaining cost is for parts, spares, logistics, support and other such items. Thus, it is not fair or accurate to say that the Marine Corps is paying $1,875.00 just for a pistol.

Applying the above formula, I would say that I wish I could buy a new Colt for just the "per pistol" portion of the price without the logistics, spare parts, support, etc.

I don't know how it works with this sort of supply contracting, but when I worked as a sales rep for an industrial building contractor, a rough rule of thumb was that whatever the work was worth in the private sector, it was "worth" three times that amount on a military contract, because of onerous paperwork requirements, work-slowing field testing, costly sample submittals, slow payment, and so forth. This is why you hear of seemingly outrageous costs for military stuff of all sorts --- when the contractors or suppliers have to spend all the extra money to "prove" that the gummint is getting what it pays for, it usually isn't.

 

[M29since14]

Looks like trouble in Colt Paradise:

The pics look pretty bad...

Thanks for the link. Yes, they do, but there is really not much in the writing to tell us what was going on. I am not defending Colt or their 1911, but I do wonder if these pistols were subjected to debris of some sort and fired extensively in that condition (admittedly normal under battle conditions), whether they failed during routine firing, whether there were obvious manufacturing defects that would explain the cracks and those can be easily addressed later, or just what. More info would have been helpful to those of us interested in such things. I also wonder if the silly forward serrations contributed to the cracking problem.

I have never seen any figures for the expected service life of 1911 slides. We do know early military-issue versions had "soft" slides and later commercial models were heat-treated to a different spec. I have always thought that the soft slides on government issue guns were replaced to improve them (when those guns were being built into competition pistols), but those pictures make me wonder if the older, soft slides were manufactured that way to avoid cracking? Anyone know?

As for the comment (in the link) that 12,000 rounds is more than a pistol would be used in a tour of duty, that may be, but hopefully our government is not spending money on pistols that last only 2-4 years or so. I would expect them to last at least 3- or 4-times that figure, hopefully more. Surely there have been many, many hardball guns built over the years that have fired maybe 10- or 20-times that number of rounds without catastrophic failures. Something is out of whack with those pistols and the whole story is not being told, for one reason or another.

 

[venomballistics]

if those pictures are real,,that is a serious issue that needs to be delt with asap! 12000 rounds is more than most of us will ever shoot,but 12000 rounds from a duty gun isnt ****.....

that trend of forward slide serrations looks to be the culprit. While it looks cool I always filed that one under "Why" as a utilitarian feature on any gun.
looks like the tacticool squared for the rail forward portion of the frame creates a good stress point as well. but whats up with the spring cap? I've hammered one till it expanded and bound .. 10 minutes with a file to take it down and add a chamfer solved and prevented future issues... whats up with the split?!?!

 

[M29since14]

(1) that trend of forward slide serrations looks to be the culprit. While it looks cool I always filed that one under "Why" as a utilitarian feature on any gun.

(2) looks like the tacticool squared for the rail forward portion of the frame creates a good stress point as well.

(3) but whats up with the spring cap? I've hammered one till it expanded and bound .. 10 minutes with a file to take it down and add a chamfer solved and prevented future issues... whats up with the split?!?!

1. Maybe, maybe not. The engineers will be able to study that area with their various software programs and see if the analysis follows real life. It seems more likely that there is a problem related to shapes and/or clearances, but we don't know, and I'm sure we will never be told.

2. More of nr. 1. All we'll ever know is that the guns we see there cracked. What the real problem was with them, we'll never know. If properly done, I can't see why the rail mount - by itself, without the gun being used/abused with weight hanging from that rail - would be a big problem, particularly so if the frames were forged.

3. Possibly metallurgy? If these parts are bought "off shore," it is almost assured that they were purchased "on-the-cheap" and metallurgy may have (probably) suffered accordingly. The general public has no idea of the extent of problems that we are incurring with out-sourced bits and pieces because of terrible metallurgy. Just one uninformed explanation, I know, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was true. I'm sure we will never know.

In the big scheme of things, this is a small purchase for Uncle Sam and no doubt it was a pet project of certain higher-ups. Most likely there will be little interest in the whole deal, except among a few of us old 1911 cranks, and Uncle could care less what we think. "Just keep your head down and keep paying your taxes." Or, as Dave Keith would say, "Just keep them cards and letters!"

 

[BE Mike]

I like Colts, 1911's and Berettas,but I am skeptical. I wonder how much politics played a part in this. Colt has really been trying to make a comeback, but without any new or novel products. Apparently they have no R&D. They just don't know how to make it in the private marketplace without suckling on the government. They have been Retired Marine Lt. Gen. Keys used to be the CEO of Colt and is now in charge of Colt Defense. As you can probably surmise, I have no respect for the company and how it is being operated.

I don't buy the arguments that the Beretta M9 is inaccurate and the 1911 isn't and I've fired both extensively. I haven't seen any conclusive evidence that either cartridge is superior to the other. I've heard true stories of each pistol being used in combat effectively. I know that any weapon that saves your bacon in a combat scenario probably would become an emotional favorite and understandably so.

I just don't see any evidence that one is better than the other, when we take all the emotion out of it. I don't think that our troops would be ill-served by either sidearm. It's not the hammer...it's the skill of the carpenter.

 

[nipster]

I like Colts, 1911's and Berettas,but I am skeptical. I wonder how much politics played a part in this. Colt has really been trying to make a comeback, but without any new or novel products. Apparently they have no R&D. They just don't know how to make it in the private marketplace without suckling on the government. They have been Retired Marine Lt. Gen. Keys used to be the CEO of Colt and is now in charge of Colt Defense. As you can probably surmise, I have no respect for the company and how it is being operated.

I don't buy the arguments that the Beretta M9 is inaccurate and the 1911 isn't and I've fired both extensively. I haven't seen any conclusive evidence that either cartridge is superior to the other. I've heard true stories of each pistol being used in combat effectively. I know that any weapon that saves your bacon in a combat scenario probably would become an emotional favorite and understandably so.

I just don't see any evidence that one is better than the other, when we take all the emotion out of it. I don't think that our troops would be ill-served by either sidearm. It's not the hammer...it's the skill of the carpenter.

Exactly... follow the money.

Which one of these politicians or generals involved are about to retire and then magically go to work for Colt... follow the money.

Considering the state of the budget right now, I see military spending on something like this as completely ridiculous given the number of servicable sidearms in the inventory.

And as far as "marines getting the best equipment"... they have a long history of having the WORST equipment. They were the last to get M16's, M1A tanks, etc, etc... they always were the last to get the best. For right or wrong, and they always made due. This bucks that tradition.

 

[7tenz]

quote by me: I wonder what the Navy Seals use?

Sig P226s with 124gr NATO-spec FMJ and 147gr +P+ JHP

They also use the HK SOCOM pistol in 45 ACP with optional silencer.

I knew about the 226 but not the ammo or the HK 45. Thanks for the info.

Tell me, did they use a 226 to ventilate Bin Laden?

 

[mkk41]

quote by me: I wonder what the Navy Seals use?



I knew about the 226 but not the ammo or the HK 45. Thanks for the info.

Tell me, did they use a 226 to ventilate Bin Laden?

By all accounts , he was "double-tapped" with a 5.56mm carbine. Probably a Colt M4 , but I have heard SEALs are using HK 416s.