Didn't I say that the cranky old whiners get all the attention?
Question for LEO and/or military on the board
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Fat Old Guy
Member
Explain why you think that it is okay for the police to do what they do. Please.
OK - this reasoning comes up all the time. However (IMHO) I can't see how anyone can compare running a Gun (wow - I think I just shot some LEO terminology) as being the same thing as checking on an iPod, phone or piece of jewelry!
It's borderline violation of 4th amendment protection against unreasonable search and seizure. Just because I have something in my possession doesn't mean it OS stolen. If I am lawfully allowed to.carry a gun I shouldn't be bothered about it and have it taken away while the serial number is run unless the LEOs run my cell phone to make sure it isn't stolen and they shoud check the DNA of my kids to make sure they're mine and I didn't kidnap them.
It's a very slippery slope we as citizens navigate when we're expected to know enough about the laws to not violate them but we don't get the option of pleading ignorance of those laws in court. I like my constitutional rights and I'll be darned if I let someone unfeigned upon them without my express permission and without letting them know that they are operating in a grey area and are violating or close to violating the constitution .
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KarmannGhia
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I personally have no problem with CCW permit holders. I may or may not hold onto the firearm and run it to check of it has been reported stolen during the course of my contact. I follow my gut (sometimes my gut says "hey I better run that" and sometimes it doesn't).
Why am I talking to you; where are we; what is you attitude during the encounter; where is the gun?
I work with some officers that see everyone as a perp. I tend to reserve judgement until you give me a reason to turn it up a notch or two. You set the tone within the first five seconds of my contact with you.
Why am I talking to you; where are we; what is you attitude during the encounter; where is the gun?
I work with some officers that see everyone as a perp. I tend to reserve judgement until you give me a reason to turn it up a notch or two. You set the tone within the first five seconds of my contact with you.
NUTTBALL763
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I think you hit it right on the head KarmannGhia. In response to bharner, As a Police Officer there are ways to do things without stepping all over someone's rights. It's pretty much called just asking them for their permission. You do have the right to say no but most people who obey the law are more then willing to grant permission. The reason I will get permission from CCW holders to check their firearms is while having casual conversations with them I usually learn where they purchased it. I have recovered stolen guns from good people who unknowingly purchased them from parking lot deals at Gun Shows (we have all witnessed those). Wouldn't you be happy if a Police Officer just doing a thorough job recovered your gun if it was stolen?
mscampbell2734
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GETTING BACK TO the point. As a LE supervisor, former Detective, and Firearms Instructor I'd have to say it has more to do with the region then anything else.
As pointed out, some states and cities have a culture of mistrusting guns and gun owners. Others have a history of respect towards guns. It all depends on where you live.
As pointed out, some states and cities have a culture of mistrusting guns and gun owners. Others have a history of respect towards guns. It all depends on where you live.
Fat Old Guy
Member
Should it not have more to do with the law and our rights than the whims of various police officers and their bosses?
goldenboy5
Member
It's disturbing to me to hear so many LEO personnel talk like it is OK to confiscate a weapon during a simple traffic stop. Unless there is reasonable suspicion that my gun has been involved, or is going to be involved in a crime, there is absolutely no reason to remove the gun from my possession.
Regardless of your reasoning, we (citizens) have protection from that very thing under the 4th Amendment. Taking my weapon is unconstitutional and should not be done.
Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for police officers, until they try to justify ignoring my rights.
Regardless of your reasoning, we (citizens) have protection from that very thing under the 4th Amendment. Taking my weapon is unconstitutional and should not be done.
Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for police officers, until they try to justify ignoring my rights.
OK - this reasoning comes up all the time. However (IMHO) I can't see how anyone can compare running a Gun (wow - I think I just shot some LEO terminology) as being the same thing as checking on an iPod, phone or piece of jewelry!
If for no other reason, the Constitution protects my right to bear arms, but doesn't mention iPods. Your reasoning, like that of too many LEOs, is that civilians with guns are a threat to them because only they are professional enough to carry firearms.
goldenboy5
Member
I would like to ask a favor of everyone. I have been on many forums that when we get into this type of discussion - it tends to get real heated and member's leave with bad feelings. The thing I love about this forum is the friendliness between the LEO and the Citizen. I think both sides have expressed their views - so, I would like to ask if we can stop this discussion - what ya think gang?
The bad feelings will cease when police consistently get it right. Infringing upon one's rights is inforgivable in my book. Justifying it is even worse.
Again, I have the utmost respect for those in blue who put themselves in harm's way, but that respect is lost when their concern for the rights of those they are to serve and protect become an afterthought.
dereksfl
Member
In law enforcement we do not usually have to deal with alot of Mr. John Q Nice, we deal with people who break the law and have no respect for the law or the people who enforce it. Some officers need a better understanding of the statues, laws and codes. They need supervisors who can police and guide them. Law enforcement deals with alot of extremely rude, nasty and direspectful individuals. Unfortunatley we have some people in this world that are just plain pure evil. You need be with us for a few days and see what we deal with. Some days it is really hard to put on the Happy Cop Face. We do have some officers that never should have been officers and others that have become hardened, but realize there are some people we deal with that never should have set foot on this earth. No one is perfect but believe most of want to do the right thing and all we want is to be able to a good job and go home at night and be with our family just as you do. We don't want to step on your rights and we don't want others to step on ours either. Can't we all get along. Life can be good if you work at it, but it is short. Take a deep breath and smile.
StatesRightist
Member
I think maybe you misread part of the thread, no one is talking about confiscating your guns. The discussion is about holding it or checking the gun till the stop is over, then giving it back to you unless it's stolen.
Fat Old Guy
Member
Confiscation happens quite often here in Pennsylvania and then you need to get a lawyer to get it back. Cops here will also snatch your wallet from your hands and rummage through it "looking for your ID" or so they claim.
StatesRightist
Member
Well that's an obvious violation of your right against illegal seizure, Some references though were to temporarily retaining it and running it. I'm not sure that is a violation, although personally, I'm not much on other people fondling my CCW guns, so I support very limited police rights to do the same.
As I said above, I'm not in support of it being taken from you or run without justification, such as warrants etc. It kind of goes along with my belief the Constitution should be strictly enforced. Sounds like you guys in PA are being harassed in my book.
But why is it being taken and investigated. Unless I'm being pulled over and my license is being run any time the police take something of mine, even temporarily, I'd consider it being detained.
I do fully understand the desire and need of LEOs to be safe. But cell phones and the like get stolen far more frequently than guns do.
Besides, isn't there supposed to be some sort of innocent until proven guilty thing? Doesn't automatically running the serial number become guilty until proven innocent?
Don't get me wrong, if an LEO asked me where it was concealed and then asked me not to touch it, I'm all for it. That way he/she knows where it is and to ne careful if I make a sudden move in that direction. Or if they ask me to drop the mag and lock the slide back while during a traffic stop or something of that nature.
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StatesRightist
Member
I have no issue with approaching it from that point of view, remember I said I'm not for taking it from you as long as you do as you described and you are not exhibiting suspicious behavior.
Playing Devil's advocate, the argument would be LEO's run your tag, run your DL, your vin# sometimes, so what's the difference? Guns are a very common stolen item, sometimes simple stop and talks yield big arrests.
Legally, LEO's can stop you, pat you down, look in your car for plain view items and even cuff you for officer safety. That being the case SCOTUS certainly would allow running your gun.
I agree with you on principle/theory 100%, but reality is, unfortunately, it can happen and you have no recourse unless they seize it and drive off with it and even then the officer does not need proof, just a reasonable belief you did something wrong, the gun's hot etc.
I'm not advocating fondling your gun, seizing it etc, just explaining why/how it's done.
Finally, if you are drinking, acting suspicious etc, officer safety is paramount and disarming you should be done.
Fat Old Guy
Member
And citizen safety is rarely considered.
StatesRightist
Member
That's not even a logical statement. The police risk their lives to maintain a stable and safe society, which you and your loved ones directly benefit from. FYI, I'm not getting into an extended debate with you on this, the truth is apparent. You are free to feel the way you do, but I don't think you are in the majority.
I'll admit that running a CCW holder's gun makes more sense as, like a car, you have to have a license. But in an open carry state it seems a but odd to run it because it is my legal right to posses it in most places provided I'm sober.
And if I'm on the street, not driving, and get cuffed without acting stupid (in VA I'm allowed to refuse to show ID to LEO provided I'm not carrying concealed and while it is kind of a jerk thing to do, it is my right and I may excercise it when desired) I will be filing lots of complaints.
And reasonable belief wont fly for anything of mine being confiscated and not returned in a timely fashion. It is prevlant attitudes like that that essentially just say "sorry, we're the police and we do what we want but if you did the same thing it would be illegal and we'd arrest you" that create so much distrust between LEO and general public.
I personally enjoy areas where the police become active in the community. Bike and beat officers are great. I like stopping to talk to them or a bit of conversation at 7-11 where a lot of the local cops gather around shift change (free donuts and coffee) or late at night when they're bored and the town is quiet.
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