1917 military over-run or Civlian ?

[model3sw]

I find in properly identifying the variations of the Model 1917 has a few grey areas of inconsistency.

The "correct" US military version seems straight forward, NO mistaking the identity here, but,

what features PRECISELY qualifies the over-runs (that most call "civilian") versus a "true" civilian version.

I make it a point to examine as many 1917s as cross my path at shows or of friends' collections.

I have a few "correct" US Military, w/ US Army stamp on the butt,

I have one in .455 with British proofs, Hand ejector 2nd model which is essentially the same or very similar brother to the 1917. I've examined many of these over the years (both 1st model HE and 2nd model HE),

What is mostly represented as "civilian" versions by those offering them for sale ... seem to me to be US Military over runs. I understand that WWI ended by the time these got into full scale production. There must have been a bounty of over-runs available for sale after WWI.

However, I have noticed the people that own THESE guns usually represent them as "civilian" or "commercial" (not military over run) yet ,they still have some sort of military influence, e.g. an Eagle head (profile) and / or a flaming bomb stamp or similar to hint military influence. These do NOT have US stamping on the butt.

>>> stop for a moment here. Are the above "true" Civilian Versions, Commercial versions or Military over-runs or all of the above ?

If Military Over-Runs, are there variations of, or addition of, or omission of the stampings / markings which would hint U.S. military influence to properly identify as such?

Then I have one that is completely absent of any and all hints of US military influence, e.g. no eagle head (side profile of eagle) or flaming bomb proof or other stamp, nor any unusual stamps of any nature to indicate possible Military influence, handling and / or inspection.

Is this a "CIVILIAN" or a "COMMERCIAL" ?

All discussed here are Pre-WWII, and all are in original configurations, (none have been re-worked nor had the cylinders re-bored for standard American Caliber revolver ammo)

Any learned members who have made a study of this or with the experience and factual details on these variances, please advise.

Thank you. Sal Raimondi SWCA#1300

 

[DCWilson]

Sal, good questions.

I tend to follow the concept of original intent: the 1917 was designed as a military model and every specimen should be considered military unless it meets the narrowest definition of a commercial variety. For me, that means there should be no military markings of any sort, and there should be a S&W logo on the left side of the frame (or on the sideplate for the very few units made after the late 1930s). Lanyard loops may or may not be present.

If the 1917 collecting community sees fit to draw additional distinctions, I am more than willing to learn from and be guided by them.

 

[model3sw]

Dave, your learned input is always welcomed and appreciated. Sal Raimondi

 

[MKT]

I can't speak much to the defining differences between military and commercial 1917s but I believe one clear cosmetic clue would be the finish. Didn't the commercial versions get a better polish and blue than the military model?

 

[Wiregrassguy]

The SCSW says the military models had a lighter finish than the commercials. I don't have a military to compare my commercial to. But, the finish on the commercial is like that on my 1921 M&P Target...deep glossy blue.

 

[Oyeboteb]

Whew!


Lots to learn if wishing to make sense out of the relationship between the m1917 as such, the Commercial Models, and, the Brazil Contract version.


2nd Mdl HE in .455 wise - When did the .455 cease production? And, or, did S & W offer a Post WWI 'Commercial' Model of it?

 

[Oyeboteb]

I can't speak much to the defining differences between military and commercial 1917s but I believe one clear cosmetic clue would be the finish. Didn't the commercial versions get a better polish and blue than the military model?

Seems like the early m1917s may have had a finish which was on par with the regular S & W Revolvers of the day...while the later m1917s may have had a finish which was somewhat more modest.

Similarly, I know I have seen at least one early Brazil Contract Revolver, who's intact, original finish was simply gorgeous and wonderfully 'Blue'. Looked more like a 1920s finish than a mid to latter 1930s finish.

I would have bought it, but the Bore was shot out to where it was basically 'smooth', and the Lockwork was worn out, even though oddly enough, the finish was likely about 75 percent and very striking for being so 'Blue' and lovely.

All lettering and other details were crisp and I felt confident I was apprehending an original finish.

 

[Hondo44]

Sal, good questions.

I tend to follow the concept of original intent: the 1917 was designed as a military model and every specimen should be considered military unless it meets the narrowest definition of a commercial variety. For me, that means there should be no military markings of any sort, and there should be a S&W logo on the left side of the frame (or on the sideplate for the very few units made after the late 1930s). Lanyard loops may or may not be present.

If the 1917 collecting community sees fit to draw additional distinctions, I am more than willing to learn from and be guided by them.

David,
Well stated. I am not aware of any pre war over-run 1917s or Civilian versions and conclude that the terminology is hype used by some sellers selling 1917 reworks, reblues, etc., as an attempt to cash in on the Commercial Model values. According to Neal and Jinks, the Commercial models of this period were stamped 'US Army Model 1917' and stamped 'US Property' under the barrel. Is that still the belief or has that been proven incorrect?

It appears that some confusion may arise Post WW II however. But I have a preliminary question or two for background before getting back to the Commercial 1917 question:

When the round top inspector stamped frames from the 1930s were purchased from the government by S&W in time to assemble <1000 or 10,000 (?) for the 1946 Brazilian contract, can we presume these would have had inspector stamps on them?

Is it known when the 1917 frames became flat top with the large sq notch rear sight? Apparently by the time of the 1937 Brazilian contract since most all seem to have those features, but when?

BACK TO COMMERCAIL MODELS

In SCSW reportedly some few of these 1930 rd top frames (less than 1000) were also reportedly assembled into Transitional Commercial models in serial range S209792-S210782. If the book is correct, big 'if', do these commercial models have 1930 inspector stampings and is that where the confusion arises?

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Jim,
The 1917 Commercial that I have has no US Property or other military stampings. It falls in the SN 181XXX range of some of the Brazilians. I'm not saying the SCSW is wrong, but maybe only some commercial models were stamped or they could have been counterfeits.

 

[Hondo44]

Jim,
The 1917 Commercial that I have has no US Property or other military stampings. It falls in the SN 181XXX range of some of the Brazilians. I'm not saying the SCSW is wrong, but maybe only some commercial models were stamped or they could have been counterfeits.

Hey Guy,

You're an early riser, I haven't been in the rack yet here on the Left coast.

Thank you for that info! I suspected the book was either wrong or not completely right about the stamping. Possibly it was a sometime thing or just earlier models which might be how the "Civilian Model 1917" terminology came about that Sal is referencing. I never say never when it comes to Smiths!

I'm gonna' crash now, have a great day my friend and I'll be back later on today,

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Heck, Jim, you stay up a long time. Yeah, I don't sleep much anymore. Counting Smiths doesn't work 'cause I keep reaching for my wallet and falling out of bed .

I guess there aren't many folks who worked at S&W in the '30s still around who could shed some light on this. Don't know if the Historical Foundation may have some info...probably isn't digitized yet.

 

[DCWilson]

I believe the flat-top revision came to the N-frame in the 1926/1927 time frame. As I recall, the earliest Model of 1926 .44 HEs had round tops, but in short order the Model of 1926 production was using the flat-top frames with square-notch sight channels.

My second contract Brazilian is a Frankengun with a replacement yoke, but the frame and other parts are numbered 173159.

I'll try to hit the question on the 1946 Brazilian contract over on the other thread. But with regard to the last 990 units in the old 1917 serial number sequence -- I thought those were built on new frames made after the war. They had the new hammer safety block (S prefix).

 

[BUFF]

Quuoting Roy Jinks' "History Of Smith & Wesson," the military production guns were sold out by January, 1921, and S&W "began producing a commercial model identical to the war-time production gun, except for it's checkered walnut grips."

I take that to mean that 1917s sold prior to January, 1921 were "military overruns" but guns made after that date, except those made for Brazil, were manufactured with the intention of commercial sales.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

I see that I'm going to have to get Roy's book. Thanks, BUFF.

 

[Hondo44]

I'll try to hit the question on the 1946 Brazilian contract over on the other thread. But with regard to the last 990 units in the old 1917 serial number sequence -- I thought those were built on new frames made after the war. They had the new hammer safety block (S prefix).

There's a statement in SCSW pg 163 that the new hammer block was added at serial # 185,000 w/o an S which would be prior to 1946. The Victory Model accidental death that caused the retrofit of the hammer block safety in those models probably spurred its introduction on the 1917s pre end of WW II.

It's becoming clearly apparent that the 1917 section of the book is as lacking in clarity as the I frame section.

 

[JSR III]

I would strongly suggest that anyone that is interested in the 1917's acquire a copy of Charlie Pate's fine book "U.S. Handguns of World War II". They are pricey but well worth it for anyone that is interested in military guns.

In Appendix H on page 353, there is a copy of a letter from James E. Sullivan, Resident Inspector of Ordnance, Smith & Wesson, Inc. to Lt. Col. A.M. Johnson, Deputy District Chief, Springfield Ordnance District dated February 10, 1950, that addresses the M1917 rebuild program. This may at least answer some questions about the 1917's.

I will try to scan in a copy for all to read.

Well, that didn't work, so I guess I'm typing it. It's pretty long so go grab a beer while I type.

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Well, there you have it. Hopefully that answers some questions and gives some insight into the rebuild procedure. My hands are tired, time for my beer.

 

[Muley Gil]

Now, the question(s) is/are, what happened to these rebuilt 1917s? Were any issued in Korea? Has anyone encountered one with the upgraded safety installed? What type of grips were installed?

 

[Hondo44]

James that was very interesting. A question I have is where was the new flaming bomb stamp applied and would one of these rebuilt guns have two bomb stamps or was the original removed in the sandblasting process?

 

[JSR III]

Jim, I would think that the original was removed during the refinish process and a new one added. The letter states that it was placed on the frame so we know at least that much. I have never heard of one with 2 bombs, does anyone have one????

It sure would be nice to know if there are any records of the serial numbers of these 28,000 M1917's. Perhaps Charlie has that information in his files. I will shoot him and email and see what he has to say.

The sad part was the line that said, Stocks were removed and thrown away. That means that there are 28,000 pairs of 1917 stocks in the Springfield dump. (Don Mundell will be over there tonight with a shovel)

 

[JSR III]

S&W 1917 Serial #13(PIC HEAVY)(UPDATE SEE LAST POST NEW PICS)


Check out this thread. The 1917 shown here has an "S" on the cylinder face. I would guess that it might have been through this or a similar rebuild program.