1917 military over-run or Civlian ?

[handejector]

Now, the question(s) is/are, what happened to these rebuilt 1917s? Were any issued in Korea? Has anyone encountered one with the upgraded safety installed? What type of grips were installed?

Good question.
I've never heard of that rebuild before!

I suspect they may have been dumped on one of our third world allies or some rebels we wished to support somewhere, sometime.
I have NEVER encountered one of those guns that I know of.

Some questions come to mind:
Were barrels and cylinders rematched to guns by serial numbers?
Were new barrels and cylinders numbered to match frames?
Were guns simply reassembled with mixed numbers?
WW I U.S. 1917 hammers and triggers are slightly different from later N frame parts. We know they probably replaced rebound slides because of the hammer block stud. Did they replace all hammers and triggers? Will triggers in those guns be grooved, either all or some?

S&W 1917 Serial #13(PIC HEAVY)(UPDATE SEE LAST POST NEW PICS)


Check out this thread. The 1917 shown here has an "S" on the cylinder face. I would guess that it might have been through this or a similar rebuild program.

PLEASE- let's not start that misconception!
That S has nothing to do with the hammer block and was put on the first many thousands built in 1917-18.

 

[Hondo44]

I believe the flat-top revision came to the N-frame in the 1926/1927 time frame. As I recall, the earliest Model of 1926 .44 HEs had round tops, but in short order the Model of 1926 production was using the flat-top frames with square-notch sight channels.

Made an interesting 1917 observation today.

A Model 1917 righteous military model #113934 with all appropriate frame stampings with flat top strap and square notch rear sight. It has the original finish and is in very nice original, unmolested condition.

Has anyone else seen a flat top strap frame on a WW I vintage 1917?

 

[Skeetr57]

With regard to the flaming bomb stamp: There were two versions of the flaming bomb. It is the branch insignia of the Ordnance Corps and is usually seen with the tapered symmetrical flame. However there was also a version like the one shown on the revolver in this thread with the ragged sort of flat top flame. Some where I have a set of lapel/collar pins with that same type of flame that were given to me by an old ordnance officer.

 

[Skeetr57]

Hondo: I would say that the gun you saw had a replaced frame from a later date. Not only have I not seen a M1917 from the WWI period with the flat top frame I have nat seen any size S&W from the WWI period with a flat top frame. My 1923 S&W catalog specifically mentions the new type of fixed sights for several models, ,but not for the round butt M&P, nor any I frame or N frame, including the civilian M1917.

 

[fkienast]

"When the round top inspector stamped frames from the 1930s were purchased from the government by S&W in time to assemble <1000 or 10,000 (?) for the 1946 Brazilian contract, can we presume these would have had inspector stamps on them?"

I have a reputed Brazilian 1937. I say reputed due to it's sideplate is stamped with the Brazilian crest, but it is the only part not serialized to the gun. The serial number is 55639, it's a round sight notch, inspectors stamps on barrel, & cylinder. Small p and a capital S on yoke. No property mark on Barrel. No US ARMY 1917 model info on butt. S&W logo on left side. No Ordnance flaming bomb.

 

[Hondo44]

Hi Tom,

That's what I'm thinking. #113934 was shipped in 1918 and most likely had a frame transplant during the S&W "...rebuild contracts before terminated at the end of WWII." (NOTES FROM THE ARCHIVES #6 - THE MODEL 1917 AND THE 'NATIONAL OPERATING COMPANY' by Charlie Pate)

 

[Hondo44]

"When the round top inspector stamped frames from the 1930s were purchased from the government by S&W in time to assemble <1000 or 10,000 (?) for the 1946 Brazilian contract, can we presume these would have had inspector stamps on them?"

I have a reputed Brazilian 1937. I say reputed due to it's sideplate is stamped with the Brazilian crest, but it is the only part not serialized to the gun. The serial number is 55639, it's a round sight notch, inspectors stamps on barrel, & cylinder. Small p and a capital S on yoke. No property mark on Barrel. No US ARMY 1917 model info on butt. S&W logo on left side. No Ordnance flaming bomb.

The sideplate will have a matching assembly # to the two on the yoke and in the yoke cut on the frame. If it doesn't match, the side plate has been replaced. And I think it has been.

I know of no Brazilians with any serial numbers as low as or even near # 55639. Does the serial # on the grip frame butt match the serial #s on the barrel and cyl?

 

[fkienast]

The sideplate will have a matching assembly # to the two on the yoke and in the yoke cut on the frame. If it doesn't match, the side plate has been replaced. And I think it has been.


I know of no Brazilians with any serial numbers as low as or even near # 55639. Does the serial # on the grip frame butt match the serial #s on the barrel and cyl?

I took the side plate off again, and the frame number, yoke number and the side plate number match.

Those three serial numbers all match. Accordong to my SCSW 3rd edition , it wasn't in either group of serial numbers.

 

[Hondo44]

Very interesting and good news!

So all three assembly #s match, and the serial #55639 on the butt of the grip frame, cyl and barrel all match?

Truth can be stranger than fiction. You have a very early numbered Brazilian outside of the normally considered serial ranges. It only goes to prove, there are no rules with S&Ws. It could be a righteous gun and most likely from the '46 contract since it's a round top frame.

Unused serial numbered military frames preceding and following #169959, the estimated last military unit made, were assembled thru # 209791 by 1946.
Some with very varied shipping dates were assembled into commercial model 1917s, 2nd Model 44 Hand Ejectors, and military 1917s to fill contracts for the Brazilian government in 1936 and 1946. Most will have the flaming bomb government inspector stamps in various locations but not on the outside of the frame which were re-finished; only in the yoke. And there's no reason why a frame made into a 45 ACP could not also have a surplus 1917 barrel and cylinder which would likely have the inspector stamps.

Are the stamps on your barrel and cyl the eagle head or flaming bomb?

 

[JSR III]

Just to add to the collective knowledge. I own 55547 and it is NOT a Brazilian.

I took the side plate off again, and the frame number, yoke number and the side plate number match.

Just to make sure we all understand. The numbers in the yoke cut, the yoke and the back side of the side plate all match? If so what is that number?

Then turning the gun upside down, what is the number on the butt of the gun?

 

[fkienast]

Just to add to the collective knowledge. I own 55547 and it is NOT a Brazilian.



Just to make sure we all understand. The numbers in the yoke cut, the yoke and the back side of the side plate all match? If so what is that number?

Then turning the gun upside down, what is the number on the butt of the gun?

The serial number, 55639, is stamped on butt grip, barrel, yoke, and frame.


Those numbers are 18408. It is marked three times with that number, once on the frame, yoke and inside the side plate.

The pistol has Eagle head proofs, an S24 on cylinder, and an S34 on the barrel, they're tiny and hard to read.

 

[Hondo44]

I think that clinches it then!

 

[fkienast]

My big question is since it has no US government markings other than inspection stamps, where did this revolver sit from 1918 till 1946, when it was sold to Brazil?

 

[Hondo44]

The frame was in Smith inventory. They're made in large batches then assembled as the need arises.

Yours was likely in a batch of about 7300 frames made in 1918 under the government contract for WW I, but never completed before the end of the war. They were delivered to the government and bought back at a later date as surplus.

 

[Jack Flash]

I'm guessing it would be impossible to say how many crates, barrels, warehouses, depots the frame & parts traversed before being made into a working revolver ...

 

[iskra]

A Usual Suspect

Living dangerously here. Replying without having read all the above posts. Yet little time today! Below a pix of my commercial post WWII .Model 1917 Sn 2099xx (no "S" prefix). Just for illustration.
And the usual...
Just my take

 

[JSR III]

Things to note on iskra's gun. Made in USA roll mark, large S&W logo on side plate and non mushroom extractor rod knob and checked stocks.

These are not found on the non commercial models.

 

[Hondo44]

Living dangerously here. Replying without having read all the above posts. Yet little time today! Below a pix of my commercial post WWII .Model 1917 Sn 2099xx (no "S" prefix). Just for illustration.
And the usual...
Just my take

That's a beauty and one of the easiest Commercial models to identify.

It's clearly one of the few more (not including the 1946 Brazilians) 1917 Commercial Army Models produced, (991 is the usual quantity quoted), most in the 1917 serial range # S209972 to # S210782 (811 #s), some without the S prefix, with post ~1933 and #185000 hammer block safety, issued post WW II, c. 1946 - 1950, found with and w/o lanyard swivels, and are considered "Model 1917 Post War Transitional Models".

Replaced by the short action ".45 HE Model of 1950, Military" in 1951 beginning at #S85000 in the other existing N frame serial # range common to all pre war models except the 1917 Army, but with added S prefix in 1946.

 

[ejjeff]

I would just like to say Thank you to all the members of this forum for the education they so freely give.

Jeff

 

[model3sw]

I dug up this old thread I started back in 2012 to specify, more precisely what i mean.

I believe, although commercially sold, the first listed below was a US Over-run when production stopped at the end of WWI.

I have a model 1917 SN: 174xxx that is NOT a US marked model but has the following: proofed w-Eagle profile (side view of eagles head) w/ S-34. In frame Eagle & S2. No flaming bomb that I can see.

Then I have another 1917 SN: 133xxx that "is" a US marked model and has the near same markings as follows: Eagle profile (side view of eagle's head) over S2 on barrel & frame inside crane area. Flaming Bomb on left rear upper. United States Property barrel.

And, another 1917 US Army SN: 68xxx SN noted as follows: Light Eagle over S4 frame, Flaming bomb left rear upper frame United States Property barrel.

Same eagle, same S2 marks on SN 133xxx but no US Army markings, just the partial with Eagle and Sx number.

One very near like 133xxx sold at Reading Auction in December 2016 for $2500.00. It was approximately a 90% or better gun. It only had a flaming bomb inside the frame but no other, Ne eagle no Sx markings.

Comments ?