Wad Cutters for Defence

[Keith Cservak]

Been making my own HPWC for a while now ever since I read an article in handloader mag I just chuck the in my sherline lathe and use a 60 degree starter drill I use 158 grain bullets they shoot real good will post a pic in the next day or two.

 

[Sebago Son]

Jim Cirillo liked these....

But these days I'm with Capt'n Dave and shoot mostly Semi-Wadcutters under a healthy dollop of Unique...

 

[DWalt]

"At three feet, you aren't going to be using your sights. Without sights, you aren't aiming. Without aiming, shot placement is a fantasy."

If you read Bill Jordan's book "No Second Place Winner," he spends a lot of time discussing proper training for engagements at "up close and personal" distances where sights are useless.

 

[358156hp]

Shot placement in a self-defense situation is a fantasy. Shot placement in a self-defense situation is a fantasy. Shot placement in a self-defense situation is a fantasy.

Nonsense. When under stress, you default to the level of your training. Much depends on if and how you've trained. If you haven't trained at all, your statement may have some validity if you're the nervous type.

 

[pete950]

These are what Jim Cirillo liked. These are what I carry in my model 37 back up gun.

 

[CoMF]

http://ccjatraining.com/articles/HandgunStoppingPower.pdf

"The FBI, in the Uniform Crime Report (UCR), tells us that most shootings - about 80% - occur in low or reduced light. Most shootings involving police officers and civilian concealed carry permit holders happen at a distance of less than ten feet with average distance at three feet."

Curiously, the author fails to provide sources or corroboration for this pronouncement for in his bibliography, despite (correctly) enumerating FBI SA Urey Patrick's papers on "stopping power."

Go figure.

He's more stuff (sic):

http://www.pointshooting.com/nra.pdf

This article lacks a bibliography or any sort and is chock full of ambiguities like: "One study of police shootings in a major urban area..." Is that so? Which study? Where is this "urban area"? What protocols were used? Was the study peer reviewed by other professionals in the law enforcement community?

I grow tired of this, and I'm seriously worried about drawing the ire of the moderators. So, in closing, I wish to state the following:

I'm not denying that some self-defense encounters occur at distances which preclude the use of aimed shooting. HOWEVER, to say that they are in the statistical majority requires proof which, as of the writing of this post, has yet to be presented.

In situations where the above is true, other posters have correctly pointed out that you will fall to the level of your training and that using a flash sight picture or aimed point shooting as circumstances permit is not in vain provided that the individual's skill level is sufficient enough to achieve fairly solid COM hits. (Whether the hits actually do anything is the subject of another discussion, and my answer to that would be to simply point you in the direction of SA Patrick's "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness.")

If you cannot obtain fairly solid COM hits using a flash sight picture or aimed point shooting despite sub-optimal conditions and the effects of adrenaline and stress, then nothing short of heightened situational awareness and avoidance will save you from a deadly encounter.

THE END.

 

[CoMF]

Jim Cirillo liked these....

What exactly are those, if you don't mind me asking? They look pretty neat.

 

[Sebago Son]

What exactly are those, if you don't mind me asking? They look pretty neat.

These are now long out of print. They are Jim Cirillo's "Man Stopper" or "Felon Grabber" as made and sold by Kaswer Custom Ammo.

Kaswer was at one time famous in the 1980's wave of boutique ammo with their "Pin Grabber" load.

Man Stopper / Felon Grabber was available as loaded rounds or components in .38/.357 and .45 ACP / Colt.

 

[ol' geeser]

While wad cutters were a reasonable choice "back in the day", there has been so much bullet development since then....that I think one can readily find better alternatives! Why go back to the stone age???

The other side of that is..." If it ain't broke, don't fix it".....it works, period

 

[gaucho1]

This is the clearest and most succinct survey of handgun effectiveness
so far.

After reading 40 years of unsupported pontification and assertion this provides a sober and complete picture.

Penetration and location with no magic bullets, formulas or "effects".

Only thing left out............more holes are better...improves the odds of
an effective hit.

Well Done

John

Curiously, the author fails to provide sources or corroboration for this pronouncement for in his bibliography, despite (correctly) enumerating FBI SA Urey Patrick's papers on "stopping power."

Go figure.



This article lacks a bibliography or any sort and is chock full of ambiguities like: "One study of police shootings in a major urban area..." Is that so? Which study? Where is this "urban area"? What protocols were used? Was the study peer reviewed by other professionals in the law enforcement community?

I grow tired of this, and I'm seriously worried about drawing the ire of the moderators. So, in closing, I wish to state the following:

I'm not denying that some self-defense encounters occur at distances which preclude the use of aimed shooting. HOWEVER, to say that they are in the statistical majority requires proof which, as of the writing of this post, has yet to be presented.

In situations where the above is true, other posters have correctly pointed out that you will fall to the level of your training and that using a flash sight picture or aimed point shooting as circumstances permit is not in vain provided that the individual's skill level is sufficient enough to achieve fairly solid COM hits. (Whether the hits actually do anything is the subject of another discussion, and my answer to that would be to simply point you in the direction of SA Patrick's "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness.")

If you cannot obtain fairly solid COM hits using a flash sight picture or aimed point shooting despite sub-optimal conditions and the effects of adrenaline and stress, then nothing short of heightened situational awareness and avoidance will save you from a deadly encounter.

THE END.

 

[Forrest r]

Jacketed hbwc rule

I've shot countless 1000's of lead wc bullets in 38's, 357's, 44spl's & 44mags in 1 7/8", 2", 3," 4", 6", 7 1/2", 10", 12" & 14" bbls.

I cast my own wc with h&g #50, lyman 385495 & 429348 molds.

I also cast hbwc bullets in 44 & 38/357 and have done different tests with soft to hard alloys in short to long bbl's with mild to wild velocities in different test mediums.

A jacketed hbwc bullet has easily out performed any lead bullet (wc/hbwc) I've ever tested. The jacketed hbwc's that I use/tested are bonded not swaged. The bonding of the lead core is what makes it superior to anything I've ever seen.

I am in the process of testing a bonded core segmented hp for a 9mm, 38spl, 357, 44spl, 44mag & 45acp. I'm hoping for moreexpansion & extremely low speeds (550fps).

 

[Old TexMex]

Buffalo Bore 20C-158gr. Soft lead SWCHC

 

[keith44spl]

Jest for the hell of it..........

I shot this target back years ago...When I was in 'Fightin Trim' using wadcutters and semi-wadcutters.

Two at once from the hip with a pair of five inch N frames, a 27-2 & 25-5 LC.

That left hand pulled one a lit'l high to start off...But, she settled down purty quick.

Plain ol typing paper

Now what's all this horse hockey 'bout ya can't hit nothin' without using the sights?


Su Amigo,
Dave

 

[Sebago Son]

http://ccjatraining.com/articles/HandgunStoppingPower.pdf

"First let's take a look at some statistics. The FBI, in the Uniform Crime Report
(UCR), tells us that most shootings - about 80% - occur in low or reduced light.
Most shootings involving police officers and civilian concealed carry permit
holders happen at a distance of less than ten feet with average distance at three
feet."

At three feet, you aren't going to be using your sights. Without sights, you aren't aiming. Without aiming, shot placement is a fantasy.

That reminds me of the story about the Statistician that drown while crossing a river that was an average of 3 feet deep....

 

[pete950]

Jest for the hell of it..........

I shot this target back years ago...When I was in 'Fightin Trim' using wadcutters and semi-wadcutters.

Two at once from the hip with a pair of five inch N frames, a 27-2 & 25-5 LC.

That left hand pulled one a lit'l high to start off...But, she settled down purty quick.

Plain ol typing paper

Now what's all this horse hockey 'bout ya can't hit nothin' without using the sights?


Su Amigo,
Dave

I remember seeing right hear on this forum a video of Kieth44 point shooting a pair I think to handsom short barelled 44s. Now he looks to have some years of experiance and handles those 2 revolvers enough to know don't mess, just imagine when he was fightin trim. It men like him on the forum I sure learn a lot from. If I could only be able to hang around a while I could learn a lot more.

 

[Old TexMex]

Jest for the hell of it..........

I shot this target back years ago...When I was in 'Fightin Trim' using wadcutters and semi-wadcutters.

Two at once from the hip with a pair of five inch N frames, a 27-2 & 25-5 LC.

That left hand pulled one a lit'l high to start off...But, she settled down purty quick.

Plain ol typing paper

Now what's all this horse hockey 'bout ya can't hit nothin' without using the sights?


Su Amigo,
Dave

Difference between theory and practice: In theory, practice and theory are the same, but in practice,theory and practice are way different.

 

[Forrest r]

You have some excellent thoughts, ideas & concerns racingsnake; there has always been a tradeoff between velocity, controllability & bullet performance in any snub nosed revolver.

Most hbwc bullets need to be made out of a 20 to 1 alloy minimum to stabilize in snub nosed revolvers (no more tumbling). The 20 to 1 alloy is also the minimum alloy for the bullet to stay intact & 800fps to have a consistent expansion & retain their shape/weight.

A soft jackted hbwc that has the lead bonded to metal of the jacket will open at much slower speeds, retain its weight & retain its shape because the 2 metals are fused together. The jacketed hbwc's are extremely stable & will not tumble in any snub nosed revolvers.

Some test bullets, cast 38 hbwc's, jacketed 38hbwc's, cast 44hbwc's & jacketed hbwc's.

Some jacketed hbwc's (38spl/44spl) shot out of 2" snub nosed revolvers with powder puff loads @ 550fps.

The bullet with an arrow pointing at it was shot thru a milk jug full of water that had a bowling pin sitting behind it. I dug that slug out of the bowling pin; it was buried up to the base of the bullets in the pin.

Like I said "Jacketed hbwc's rule". Their stable in any gun, can be loaded from mild to wild, fully expand @ low speeds & retain their weight.

 

[Beemer-mark]

Though often brought up by dramatic gun writers, your choice of ammunition in an otherwise justified use of deadly force will have little bearing.

How true, the corollary is that no matter how justified the opposing attorney will use anything (and I mean anything) against you.

 

[Practical]

Until "magnumitis" set in during the last half of the 20th century, 148gr of soft lead at 700fps was considered more than adequate for close range defense, for shooters who could hit their target.

Not too shabby in a 3" model 60 for knocking off small game either.

True, but modern medicine and triage did not exist.

Today, loads at this power level would likely result in nearly all gun shot victims surviving if modern medical care could be quickly be provided.

 

[Doug M.]

Modern ballistic knowledge has evolved to new directions in terms of both points of aim on the human body (better targets showing where we should aim), better training, and a better understanding of projectile performance. Most of the hard core research has been done on service caliber autopistols (9mm, 40, 45ACP, and to a lesser extent .357Sig) because that's where the volume of LE ammo purchases are. However, it is not impossible to get revolver ammo that performs as well as the typical autopistol ammo if one knows what the needs are. The sharp edges of a good WC (Black Hills likely being the default) or a good SWC are a fine choice. They do not need to be loaded real hot to have good penetration and other performance characteristics.

Medical treatment matters to the good guys, of course, but what really matters if one has to shoot someone is that they stop their actions. Whether they stop by death or some other means is not really important. Handgun ammo sucks for serious use, and if you have to shoot a determined adversary with a pistol, you are likely to have to shoot them a lot. A pistol is what one carries when a problem is not expected. If one has reason to expect a problem and cannot make arrangements to be elsewhere, a rifle is a far better choice. When I was in LE, if we thought there was any chance of a conflict, a long gun came out.