Dikinalaska
Member
So trying to understand, how would pulling the trigger all the way let the slide go back into battery, but not let the striker strike?
Shield out of battery - time to revisit this issue
- Thread starter Lost Lake
- Start date
So trying to understand, how would pulling the trigger all the way let the slide go back into battery, but not let the striker strike?
Smitty357
Member
Edit, never mind its not worth my typing.
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2tango2
US Veteran
Fwiw.....my xD-S will exhibit the failure to return to battery with one in the pipe
The Shield won't but my XD-S will
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
The Shield won't but my XD-S will
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
This has been my experience. Pulling the trigger quickly (like you would if you are fighting for your life) will not fire the gun. The trigger bar is pushed away from the sear by the bump, as it goes around the outside the slide can go forward. If you stop pulling the trigger and let the slide go forward, then you may be able to fire the gun.
However, if the gun is out of battery for whatever reason, pulling the trigger normally and quickly like you would in a SD situation will result in a no fire.
Resetting and repulling the trigger should allow the gun to fire.
Please let us discuss this issue in an informative and friendly way! Bob, thank you for the video, it was informative and a very impressive production. You obviously know why it happens, if you figure out how to make it NOT happen please let us know.
I have been getting emails and PM's from members regarding this issue, most of them supporting the question and some fear mentioning that they have a Shield that does the same thing because they notice a lot of bashing of anyone that dares to mention the Shield may have a problem.
So let's keep this friendly and calm...
For now my 3913 is being carried because it does go into battery if it is bumped out, and it will fire on the first trigger pull. I don't think S&W designed their self defense gun to stick out of battery and not function if it is bumped.
One member polished the extractor and his Shield still doesn't return to battery, so that may not be the answer.
Does anyone have two Shields where one does this and one doesn't?
What do you guys think of polishing the trigger bar where it goes around that bump, or polishing the bump on the slide?
robkarrob
Member
dikinalaska reply
Regarding the out of battery condition, the trigger can be pulled fast enough that the gun will not fire on the first pull. I have tested it and when I pull the trigger back very fast, about half the times is does not fire. When it does not fire all that is required is to release the trigger to reset and re-pull the trigger, to get the gun to fire.
The reason the gun sometimes would not fire on the fast trigger pull is the bump in the slide is still holding the trigger bar out of reset. What caused the out of battery situation, in the first place, was the reset bump in the slide, and the tab on the trigger bar are making contact, and that contact is strong enough to not allow the slide to move forward. When the reset bump and tab are in contact, the trigger bar/sear loop are always held out of reset. When pulled fast enough, the trigger sear loop bypasses the sear, before the slide can move forward enough to allow for the trigger reset. Since the loop bypassed the sear, the only way to get the sear to move is to release the trigger enough that the loop will reset under the sear.
Sounds complicated as it is hard to explain what is causing the no fires in writing. The slide starts moving forward, somewhat slowly, as the recoil springs are only slighty compressed. Because of the slowly moving slide, the trigger can be pulled so fast that bump has not cleared the tab, and the sear loop passes the sear. Once past the sear the only way the gun can fire is the loop has to move forward, in front of the sear, so it can reset under the sear.
Have I made it even more confusing?
Bob
Regarding the out of battery condition, the trigger can be pulled fast enough that the gun will not fire on the first pull. I have tested it and when I pull the trigger back very fast, about half the times is does not fire. When it does not fire all that is required is to release the trigger to reset and re-pull the trigger, to get the gun to fire.
The reason the gun sometimes would not fire on the fast trigger pull is the bump in the slide is still holding the trigger bar out of reset. What caused the out of battery situation, in the first place, was the reset bump in the slide, and the tab on the trigger bar are making contact, and that contact is strong enough to not allow the slide to move forward. When the reset bump and tab are in contact, the trigger bar/sear loop are always held out of reset. When pulled fast enough, the trigger sear loop bypasses the sear, before the slide can move forward enough to allow for the trigger reset. Since the loop bypassed the sear, the only way to get the sear to move is to release the trigger enough that the loop will reset under the sear.
Sounds complicated as it is hard to explain what is causing the no fires in writing. The slide starts moving forward, somewhat slowly, as the recoil springs are only slighty compressed. Because of the slowly moving slide, the trigger can be pulled so fast that bump has not cleared the tab, and the sear loop passes the sear. Once past the sear the only way the gun can fire is the loop has to move forward, in front of the sear, so it can reset under the sear.
Have I made it even more confusing?
Bob
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Dikinalaska
Member
Wow. I must say, that was a great explanation. I'll admit I was looking at the Matrix when I read it the first time, but reading over it again and watching your video again put 2 & 2 together. Thanks again.
feelinlucky
Member
That link bar also serves as the disconnector. If the bump was further forward, the trigger/sear link would stay disconnected.
I just worked on my Shield for an hour.
I polished the trigger bar, not great but some polishing.
The bump I haven't figured how to polish yet.
I lubed (TW25) the barrel at all contact points.
I lubed the trigger bar and slide.
I lubed the recoil spring.
I slid the bigger spring tube down and lubed that shaft (very gritty!)
I lubed the rails.
I racked the slide 300 times.
It still hangs out of battery, but just barely.
I think I have figured out a sure-fire way to fix it though....
I polished the trigger bar, not great but some polishing.
The bump I haven't figured how to polish yet.
I lubed (TW25) the barrel at all contact points.
I lubed the trigger bar and slide.
I lubed the recoil spring.
I slid the bigger spring tube down and lubed that shaft (very gritty!)
I lubed the rails.
I racked the slide 300 times.
It still hangs out of battery, but just barely.
I think I have figured out a sure-fire way to fix it though....
Attachments
Smitty357
Member
Ok ive been trying to decide here. How do u "bump" it out of battery. Aside from you yourself pulling it back out of battery slightly. I just want to know how you would accidentally bump it out of battery.
robkarrob
Member
I agree Smitty it would be hard to do, except for actually manually pulling it out of battery. It take so little pressure to get it to go back into battery, that the possibility of it staying out of battery, while just moving it, is not likely. On my Shield it only takes about 2-3 pounds of forward pressure, on the slide, to get it back in battery. But since it COULD happen, that is why we showed how it would go back into battery, when the trigger gets pulled.
Bob
Bob
feelinlucky
Member
I would be interested in knowing the round count on some of these "problem" guns.
Smitty357
Member
I agree Rob, it can be done if you purposely do it yourself. I'm just looking into say a self defense situation. If you were to be put into one of those situations, how would it potentially be bumped out of battery.
I can understand that the intruder could push your gun backwards, somehow and the slide would move back a bit. And of course at this moment it would be out of battery. But what is the chances of this likely happening. And what is the chances of a person defending themselves letting the intruder get close enough to even touch their defense weapon or have the opportunity to take their weapon from them? This is about the only case i can see the weapon coming out of battery that is not purposely done by you.
I can understand that the intruder could push your gun backwards, somehow and the slide would move back a bit. And of course at this moment it would be out of battery. But what is the chances of this likely happening. And what is the chances of a person defending themselves letting the intruder get close enough to even touch their defense weapon or have the opportunity to take their weapon from them? This is about the only case i can see the weapon coming out of battery that is not purposely done by you.
Report from the range. I'm answering my own question what will happen if trigger pulled fast enough with OOB condition - nothing, no shot. trigger needs to be released and pulled again in order to shot.
Here is a kick - in OOB situation, when slide is only few millimeters back - slide does not return back with trigger pull - so it impossible to fire it unless manually return the slide all way forward.
Not good at all....
Here is a kick - in OOB situation, when slide is only few millimeters back - slide does not return back with trigger pull - so it impossible to fire it unless manually return the slide all way forward.
Not good at all....
Dikinalaska
Member
We finally go down the path of an answer, now yours breaks the mold. At least you proved that you can pull the trigger too fast to fire in that situation as Rob stated.
mudman bob
Member
I am at 3,150 rounds.
My count is around 3,500. Most of loads are 124gr, but some 147 and 115 in the mix. And at least 200-250 were HJP 124gr +P
Smitty357
Member
Im still wondering........How does it accidentally go OOB? And how would it go OOB during a self defense situation.
IMO, this means nothing at all. Unless of course someone can show me how to make it go OOB accidentally, without purposely pulling the slide the back.
Dikinalaska
Member
Could you bump the front of the slide at the corner so it doesnt hit the barrel as well on a door frame as you were exiting the room? Or any other object for that matter? Not likely, but possibility I guess
Smitty357
Member
This is what im trying to get at. I would better understand the so called "argument" if it were easily bumped OOB. But honestly what are the chances of something that stupid "for argument sake", lol.
Its more likely that an intruder were to push your slide backwards a bit and make the weapon go OOB. But if the intruder is close enough to push your slide, he may as well just take the weapon from you........And i dunno about you guys, but if my life is threatened, i dont plan on letting the intruder get close enough to touch my weapon.
