Shield out of battery - time to revisit this issue

[Dikinalaska]

Here is a question, just for giggles? How many of you pressure check your weapon when an intruder is posing a threat? And how many of you can replicate this OOB problem (without a pressure check) in the case of self defense?

Dropping the weapon from a 2 story building and banging it on a door frame doesnt count for an excuse.

Once again, lets not beat the dead horse any longer. Its dead, so its time to move on to something thats makes more sense like "Why are the evil weapons always the black weapons".

Smitty you've had a lot of helpful tips and suggestions towards this problem/not problem, but I think you'd be helping yourself to just skip over this thread from now on lol. While many share your views about this, some don't and are not going to let it go. I don't mean disrespect by that in any way, just some things aren't worth it after a while.

 

[supplier]

6. I have TWO LCP's out in my safe, and neither one will return-to-battery if the slides/barrels are manually retracted so they're out-of-battery, with both requiring manual assistance to go back into battery. Both work quite well during live-fire, with different loads, though. I recently tested one of them with 4 different loads (Speer GDHP, Winchester T-Series & FMJ, Remington Golden Sabre), and it ran great with all of them.

Fastbolt, just not to look like I'm passing bunch of hot air here, i ask a guy next to me at the range take a short video of me "press checking" my LCP. --my LCP does not have OOB condition if slide is pulled back.

Ok somehow i cannot attached a video. probably need to learn YouTube posting. If someone can post it for me - i'll email it - 5mb file.

Slight bump on my LCP returns slide back into its place. if much more force applied - the slide just racked and load is ejected.

 

[robkarrob]

It is not an extractor issue as the extractor is locked on the casing rim. By polishing the reset tab and the reset bump on the slide, this could help this problem, somewhat. It is a design issue with all M&P handguns. The point where the trigger bar is moved over for reset (trigger bar tab at maximum travel away from sear) is very tight and has little clearance. At normal operation speed of the gun, it is a non-issue. In attempting to polish or remove material to eliminate this "issue", if too much material is removed from these areas your gun may be subject to going full auto. Not likely as the striker would be traveling with the slide motion, but with soft primers it could happen. Removing too much material would cause the trigger bar sear loop to not be moved away from the sear, and as long as the trigger was held back, the sear would not catch the striker. This is not the same as a disconnector in a full auto gun that allows the firing pin to be released only when the bolt is moved fully forward. But it is similar to some of those that try filing off the trigger reset lip on AK style rifles, in hopes of making them full auto.

Bob

 

[Smitty357]

The crazy thing is this issues exists in numerous semi auto handguns. And for some reason it doesnt appear to be a problem with many people who own them. Even with LEO who use the Sigs. Yes those Sigs have the same issue (not all, but some), yet they depend on those weapons to protect them every day they put their uniform on.

IMO, if its good enough for them and their duties. The chances are its plenty good enough for the normal CC citizen, IMO.

 

[Vision Remodeling]

Thank you Fastbolt, now maybe some of these guys will stop beating the dead horse.

It's just not worth losing sleep over guys.

Thank you so much for your insight and wonderful suggestions. I feel so much better now. I realize we own the same gun, mine and many others exhibit a characteristic that is slightly undesierable, but yours functions just fine. Knowing that yours does not exhibit the OOB characteristic and you are perfectly fine with mine having it, makes me realize just how foolish I have been. I will now stop working on solving this issue, because you say it isn't important.

Seriously, This thread was started to come up with a solution to the issue.

Thank you to the few that have made productive posts regarding why this is occuring.

Press checks are not nessasary, agreed

I love my Shield and would recomend it to a friend

I carry the Shield and will continue to do so

I thought all of the Shields exhibited this OOB issue/non issue, now I see that some do and some do not, this is what bugs me.

I have heard that some have sent theirs back, S&W put in a new extractor and sent them back.

It doesn't bother me enough to send mine back, nor do I want to be without it for any period of time.

So.... if there was only a place where I could get together with other S&W owners and share knowledge and experiance...... maybe we could come up with a solution to fix this on our own, maybe not.

To everyone with this issue I have to say it does not bother me enough to stop using the gun, but it does bug me enough to try to come up with a solution. I will be sharing if I come up with something that works.

Mabey we should ask Smitty if he will trade, since this issue is perfectly acceptable to him.

I think it is time to dedicate the rest of this thread to solving the issue rather than tring to make people feel good about it.


Here's what I have found
My gun is not dirty, I have about 800 rounds through it
I have found that with the extractor removed it will return to battery 100% of the time with a round in and a full mag.
I have polished the barrel ( did this for looks) and later polished the extractor. I did the inside of the extractor to see if it would help. I have found that with a round in and the mag removed, it will return to battery 75% of the time, once the loaded mag goes back in the issue returns.
I polished the trigger bar.
I think it is mainly in the extractor since this is what S&W has replaced, and it will return to battery as long as no round is in the chamber.
The trigger bar catching the slide bump, sounds like a good explanation, but shouldn't it catch with a round not loaded also.
I think we have multiple places causing friction and holding it back.
I would just like to get a hold of one that doesn't have the issue and compare.

 

[Smitty357]

Ok, heres an idea. For all of you with the OOB "issue". Since the weapon seems to be pretty useless, because it has an issue that is user induced. Would any of you be willing to sell it "cheap", since its broken and useless (to you). I know a few people who are looking for one in .40 and they would be happy to have a Shield that functions perfectly fine (to them). My weapon doesnt do it because I dont care to manually induce a problem that has no affect on the way the weapon was designed to perform in action. If i wanted to manually induce a problem and complain, i'd hit the mag release button over and over and keep telling you that its releasing the mag and its a problem (to me).

The problem is........There is a short between the ground your standing on and the trigger. (lol)

PS: I just talked to a LEO buddy who has a Gen3 Block17 that does this exact same thing. He said he never really noticed it until i brought it to his attention. But for some reason, he has never minded betting his life on that particular weapon.

 

[feelinlucky]

...PS: I just talked to a LEO buddy who has a Gen3 Block17 that does this exact same thing. He said he never really noticed it until i brought it to his attention. But for some reason, he has never minded betting his life on that particular weapon.

I have a gen 4 Glock 17 that also does this. I'm not positive, but I would bet that the Glock cocks (partially) the striker in that last quarter inch or so of travel into battery. The Shield fully cocks the striker in that last bit of travel. Cocking adds to the force required to bring the slide to battery. Anyone with a striker fired semi will likely note a little of the same thing in their gun.

Much ado about nothing.

 

[M29since14]

...Sorry for the rant, but this whole thing is a discussion about nothing. If you do a press check, just close the bloody slide.

...Edit, never mind its not worth my typing.

Amen!

It is just a cheap gun! It's not a Swenson .45. If you're not happy with it, send it back to S&W for a check-up and if that fails, ditch it!

Pulling the trigger on any gun that you KNOW is out of battery is crazy. It should never be done, for any reason.

 

[highaltitude]

I have a gen 4 Glock 17 that also does this. I'm not positive, but I would bet that the Glock cocks (partially) the striker in that last quarter inch or so of travel into battery. The Shield fully cocks the striker in that last bit of travel. Cocking adds to the force required to bring the slide to battery. Anyone with a striker fired semi will likely note a little of the same thing in their gun.

Much ado about nothing.

My Glock 19 Gen 4 doesn't do it...

 

[feelinlucky]

Good for you!

 

[Vision Remodeling]

Ok, heres an idea. For all of you with the OOB "issue". Since the weapon seems to be pretty useless, because it has an issue that is user induced. Would any of you be willing to sell it "cheap", since its broken and useless (to you). I know a few people who are looking for one in .40 and they would be happy to have a Shield that functions perfectly fine (to them). My weapon doesnt do it because I dont care to manually induce a problem that has no affect on the way the weapon was designed to perform in action. If i wanted to manually induce a problem and complain, i'd hit the mag release button over and over and keep telling you that its releasing the mag and its a problem (to me).

The problem is........There is a short between the ground your standing on and the trigger. (lol)

Here is another idea how about you trade yours for one with the issue since it is no big deal to you. I will be glad to pay for the shipping and FFL to FFL transfer for you to do this with another person.
Why would I sell my gun "cheap" is there something wrong with it, I thought you said not to lose any sleep over it.

The gun is not broken or useless. I don't know why you are trying to make this out to be more than what it is, just a minor anoyance

Funny thing is, I was perfectly fine with it having the issue (I thought all of them did it) untill I watched your video and found out some of them don't.
It seems like you are more concerned with keeping up the Shield's reputation for those who may do a search looking for problems before they buy. If not for your video I would have been posting the same thing as you; It is not a problem, it can never happen unless induced and other types of guns do this don't lose any sleep over it. You could have better protected The Shield's reputation by not chiming in. Now that I have seen that not all of them exhibit this characteristic, I simply want to see if I can do something about it short of sending it back in. What is wrong with a few of us getting together on here and trying to come up with a solution. I really don't care if it is a problem or not, some do it some don't, I want to know why. We really could do without further comments that this is not an issue and we should just forget about it.

Unless you are willing to put your money were your mouth is and make a straight up trade for one of these guns......... have a nice day.

 

[highaltitude]

Good for you!

LOL. FWIW, I sent in my Shield 9mm to S&W a few days ago, with a letter detailing the issue and a request for a possible fix. I also made note of this board and that several people had the issue, while others did not. The press check didn't bother me but the possibility that it could be bumped OOB (remotely, I agree) concerned me a bit more. In any event, if I get it back "not fixed", I'm still keeping the gun. IMO, each person has to decide for themselves whether it bothers them or not and their own course of action. Personally, I don't think there is any right or wrong answer on this one, just whatever makes the owner confident enough in their little pistola.

 

[robkarrob]

Pulling the trigger on any gun that you KNOW is out of battery is crazy. It should never be done, for any reason.

No one here is suggesting pulling the trigger on any gun, to get it to go into battery from an out of battery condition. What we are showing is if the gun, SOMEHOW ended up OOB, and the user was not aware the gun was OOB, the gun would go back into battery, on its own, by pulling the trigger. The issue is some people fear that their gun somehow may get accidentally knocked out of battery, unknown to them, and if needed in a SD situation, would not fire. We have shown that the gun will go back into battery and will fire, except when the trigger is pulled very fast. If pulled fast, the gun would go back into battery, but may not fire, but by slightly releasing the trigger to reset and pulling the trigger again, the gun would fire.

No one here has even remotely suggested the trigger should be pulled for an OOB condition. It has been stated that if the gun is KNOWN TO BE OUT OF BATTERY, the finger should be off the trigger, the gun pointed in a safe direction, and the slide manually pushed closed to put the gun back into battery, or to make the gun safe the finger should be off the trigger, the mag dropped, and the slide racked back to eject the cartridge.

Bob

 

[Fastbolt]

While working the range yesterday I had the chance out on the line to inspect and check a couple more guns belonging to someone else.

The first was a brand new LCP. If the slide/barrel was retracted slightly out-of-battery (while loaded), it required manual assistance in order for the slide to go back forward into battery. Spring pressure was insufficient for it to overcome the mechanical moment of disadvantage of being pushed out-of-battery. The gun ran fine during live-fire (once I pointed out to the owner that he needed to keep his thumbs from pressing against the slide during cycling ).

The other was a Shield 9. I've previously used this gun for an afternoon myself, running different loads through it, and it runs great. The owner (another instructor & armorer) really likes this little gun, claiming he's been amazed that he shoots it better than many of his other guns (Glocks, 3rd gen S&W, M&P, 642, 1911 ). He REALLY likes this gun. It does, of course, run like a top in his hands.

And yes, if the loaded gun has the slide & barrel manually retracted slightly out-of-battery, the RSA tension is insufficient to return it to battery. It required manual assistance. When I causally asked the other instructor if he was concerned about his gun being bumped out-of-battery, so that it required his action to restore it into full in-battery condition, he looked at me like I was pulling his leg and rolled his eyes. He chuckled when I explained the reason for my question (this thread).

I also checked a couple other, larger guns and found the heavier spring tensions of their RSA's to be able to overcome such a momentarily manually-induced position of mechanical disadvantage, BTW.

Nothing surprising to me, all things considered ...

 

[robkarrob]

I have found that with the extractor removed it will return to battery 100% of the time with a round in and a full mag.

When you remove the extractor, the gun operates as if empty, no cartridge in the chamber. If you pull the slide back, it will not pull the chambered cartridge back, with no extractor there is nothing to pull the cartridge back. It could be ammo related if the casings are slightly over sized, this would require more pressure to seat the cartridge in the chamber, at the slow speed of a OOB situation. So this leads to more what ifs: is the chamber slightly undersized?; is the tab on the trigger bar slightly bent at the wrong angle?; we could keep going. When you get your gun back from S&W, try to duplicate the OOB with the same ammo, etc. As we have read some guns do not have this problem, and others like yours and mine do. Mine is very slight problem, and only requires a few pounds push on the slide to get it back into battery. There might be some that require a much harder push to get back to battery.

How to fix it could vary from gun to gun, depending on what is the prime cause. You have taken all the steps to try to eliminate it, and no success yet. If we had other guns to swap parts with, this could solve the problem, or make it worse. It is an issue, but I've seen posts of people not liking the Shield manual safety, as it is "so small" that they might swipe at it and not get it to move to off. The OOB is similar as you can always train to push the slide forward, with your thumb, as you draw the gun. Should not have to do this, but it would eliminate the worry.

I personally carry with my Shield, and have never had this issue. I have yet to find my gun out of battery, in 8 months of everyday carry.

Bob

 

[Vision Remodeling]

I'm right there with you Robkarrob, Mine has been in service everyday about 16 hours a day since June 2012, I have never had it go OOB unless it is self induced. I am pretty rough with it too, I have been in attics and under houses with it, I do residential remodeling. The only reason I tried it with out the extractor is because I already had it off, and to see if the trigger bar was the only cause. It is really not a big deal to me, but if I can come up with something I'm going to do it. The next thing I may try is to polish the chamber if I can find a polishing wheel small enough to do it, after that I think I'm out of ideas and will leave it alone.

 

[Smitty357]

I'm right there with you Robkarrob, Mine has been in service everyday about 16 hours a day since June 2012, I have never had it go OOB unless it is self induced. I am pretty rough with it too, I have been in attics and under houses with it, I do residential remodeling. The only reason I tried it with out the extractor is because I already had it off, and to see if the trigger bar was the only cause. It is really not a big deal to me, but if I can come up with something I'm going to do it. The next thing I may try is to polish the chamber if I can find a polishing wheel small enough to do it, after that I think I'm out of ideas and will leave it alone.

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (SELF INDUCED)

Dont fix something that isn't broken. 7 months of hard/rough use and its never once went OOB. It sounds to me like the weapon is performing just fine.

 

[Dikinalaska]

I'm right there with you Robkarrob, Mine has been in service everyday about 16 hours a day since June 2012, I have never had it go OOB unless it is self induced. I am pretty rough with it too, I have been in attics and under houses with it, I do residential remodeling. The only reason I tried it with out the extractor is because I already had it off, and to see if the trigger bar was the only cause. It is really not a big deal to me, but if I can come up with something I'm going to do it. The next thing I may try is to polish the chamber if I can find a polishing wheel small enough to do it, after that I think I'm out of ideas and will leave it alone.

My local hardware store by the Dremel tools had a polishing kit for the dremels. I was doing some unrelated polishing and picked one up, like 12 bucks. One of the pieces in it would work for what you're needing. Its a small cylinder that comes to a point. It's actually shaped like a bullet. I don't have access to it right now but I don't think it is bigger than a 9 round.

 

[Vision Remodeling]

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (SELF INDUCED)

Dont fix something that isn't broken. 7 months of hard/rough use and its never once went OOB. It sounds to me like the weapon is performing just fine.

It is, so are you saying that you are ready to trade yours without the issue for one that has it?

Found out today my neighbor's motorcycle is running great and has been for a while until today when he cranked down hard and fast on the throttle. When he tries to "floor it" It dies's out and looses RPMs. I asked if it ran ok when he drove it normaly, he said it did. So I told him problem solved just don't crank down on it. All Fixed. Needless to say he was not going to accept this and will be tring to find out what the problem is.


It has long been established that this issue is self induced, The only problem I have with it is that some have the issue and some don't.

So, Smitty you ready to make that trade????

I may be getting closer to a solution I have found that after polishing the extractor, with the loaded mag removed it will return to battery 75-80% of the time. When the added pressure of the loaded mag is added it continues to stay OOB, I can return it with just a fick of the wrist. I may be able to smooth some more out on the bottom of the slide. I will be playing with it tommorrow.

 

[Vision Remodeling]

My local hardware store by the Dremel tools had a polishing kit for the dremels. I was doing some unrelated polishing and picked one up, like 12 bucks. One of the pieces in it would work for what you're needing. Its a small cylinder that comes to a point. It's actually shaped like a bullet. I don't have access to it right now but I don't think it is bigger than a 9 round.

Thank you for the suggestion, I have one like you are talking about and it is just a hair to big. I'm sure I will be able to find something I just need to take the time to look.