Shield out of battery - time to revisit this issue

[Smitty357]

Supplier, sorry to see you selling your Shield.

I've read some great information here and I have a lot of things to work on. I will polish everything that moves and slides even though I don't see a bad spot right now except maybe on the trigger bar. It looks like there is a line or a scratch where the slide bump is scraping the trigger bar and cutting into it. Perhaps there is a bad cant to the trigger bar and it isn't running smoothly on the slide bump.

For the rest of this thread, let's completely forget about press checks. They don't concern me or anyone else. Let's instead consider if a bump, push or fall would move the slide back a small amount what would happen to the function of the gun. This Shield is the only handgun I have that stays OOB, and I have many striker fired and hammer fired guns.

My Shield is getting better just from cycling the action a few thousand times, but that scratch on the trigger bar could be something for us to look at. I will try to get a picture of what I see and post it.....

Bump or Fall OOB will never happen. I've attempted it 100's of times and cant get it to bump or fall OOB. Of course i have not yet dropped it from a 2 story building though. Even if some how u managed to "bump" it OOB. Its even easier to bump it back into battery.

As for pushing it OOB. If a person is close enough to "push" a weapon. Then its more likely and easier for them to take it from you and use it on you. If they push anything, they will likely push ur arm or hand away from them as to make the weapon fire in another direction.

 

[Lost Lake]

Bump or Fall OOB will never happen. I've attempted it 100's of times and cant get it to bump or fall OOB. Of course i have not yet dropped it from a 2 story building though. Even if some how u managed to "bump" it OOB. Its even easier to bump it back into battery.

As for pushing it OOB. If a person is close enough to "push" a weapon. Then its more likely and easier for them to take it from you and use it on you. If they push anything, they will likely push ur arm or hand away from them as to make the weapon fire in another direction.

Smitty:

Please quit trying to convince me that I should LOVE the fact that my Shield doesn't go into battery if bumped out of battery. I don't, and I won't live with it. If you want to believe it's okay that's great!

There IS a possibility it will be pushed OOB. There IS the possibility that I will have to fight in close quarters. I don't need a gun that doesn't return to battery. Period.

Do you get that? I don't need it, it shouldn't do that, a gun I carry will NEVER do that.

We're making some headway here and getting some great ideas from some participants. I will FIX my Shield and then we will all know what causes the problem.

BTW, I never saw if YOUR gun stays OOB with a live round in it..... I saw the mocking video with an empty gun, but is that how you carry your gun? I don't think so. Does your gun stay OOB with a live round?

 

[Smitty357]

Smitty:

Please quit trying to convince me that I should LOVE the fact that my Shield doesn't go into battery if bumped out of battery. I don't, and I won't live with it. If you want to believe it's okay that's great!

There IS a possibility it will be pushed OOB. There IS the possibility that I will have to fight in close quarters. I don't need a gun that doesn't return to battery. Period.

Do you get that? I don't need it, it shouldn't do that, a gun I carry will NEVER do that.

We're making some headway here and getting some great ideas from some participants. I will FIX my Shield and then we will all know what causes the problem.

BTW, I never saw if YOUR gun stays OOB with a live round in it..... I saw the mocking video with an empty gun, but is that how you carry your gun? I don't think so. Does your gun stay OOB with a live round?

I already told you were the problem lies, at least where i believe it lies. THE RECOIL SPRING!!!!!!!!!!!!

My .40 doesnt do it with the .40 spring, but it will in fact do it with my spring from my 9mm in the .40. It doesnt do it every time, but yes it will do it every 2 or 3 times i purposely try to create the problem......Now if i put the .40 spring into my 9mm it actually flies back into battery. It doesnt have the least bit of hesitation (as it does with the factory 9mm spring in it).

IMO, i would sell the weapon. Its useless if it doesnt work because u manually created a problem. Its not the weapons fault for functioning exactly how the factory intended it to function. Its just ur fault for trying to create a problem that the factory felt was irrelevant and didnt think that when ur life was at stake u would be crazy enough to tell the intruder "hold up let me pressure check my weapon and see if its good to go"....Ok lets go Mr Intruder.

 

[Lost Lake]

I already told you were the problem lies, at least where i believe it lies. THE RECOIL SPRING!!!!!!!!!!!!

IMO, i would sell the weapon. Its useless if it doesnt work because u manually created a problem. Its not the weapons fault for functioning exactly how the factory intended it to function. Its just ur fault for trying to create a problem that the factory felt was irrelevant and didnt think that when ur life was at stake u would be crazy enough to tell the intruder "hold up let me pressure check my weapon and see if its good to go"....Ok lets go Mr Intruder.

Again, I'm not the least bit concerned with press checks. There was a person who pulled his Shield from his holster and found it OOB. That's what started this whole issue back in May. I didn't dream this issue up you know. I just want to solve it.

I don't believe the recoil spring is bad, but maybe it is. If so, then S&W will replace it. I also don't believe S&W engineered the gun to hang OOB if it is bumped OOB. They sure didn't engineer any of my other guns they made to hang OOB.

Again, I don't care.

If I can't fix it I will sell it and hopefully get my $335 back that it cost me.

Until I get it fixed (and S&W HAS been fixing them) I am carrying a more reliable gun, I just hate to put holster wear on a good gun when I could be carrying the plastic one.

I'll report back with my polishing results... Gotta find the Dremel.

 

[Vision Remodeling]

Lost Lake, I saw the pic of your trigger bar and I thought I would give an update on what I have done. That scratch on your triger bar looks deep, the pic may be deceving. Mine had no such marks before or after I polished it. I found a few chatter marks on the underside of my slide where the rounds rub against it so I polished that and removed them. I noticed this is already done on my Springfields. I did the extractor, the trigerbar and the rails the slide rides on. I tried increasing the spring pressure by putting a washer in between the takedown lever and the recoil spring, this pushed the spring forward almost 1/16 inch. I would not run the gun like this it was simply an experiment and had no effect. For all my polishing work It is a little smoother and will return to battery with a slight flick of the wrist, but the problem remains it will not do it on it's own. While I am a little rough with the gun and have never had it get knocked out of battery while holstering or anything else, it drives me nuts that it will return on its own everytime untill a round goes in the chamber. That reminds me I could see and feel a rough spot in the chamber so I polished that too. A felt polishing wheel was to big and at someone's suggestion I used a file to reduce the size of the wheel and it worked great. The darn thing just pops right back to battery with a loaded mag and an empty chamber as soon as a round goes in it won't. I thought polishing the chamber and extractor would take care of it but it didn't. I am taking a break from it for a while as the next few weeks of work will take all my time. Hope you better luck with it than I did.

 

[Lost Lake]

The scratch on my trigger bar IS deep! I can easily catch it with my fingernail. I am wondering if the trigger bar is bent at the wrong angle and rubbing just on the edge of the slide bump....

 

[Storm40]

There was a person who pulled his Shield from his holster and found it OOB. That's what started this whole issue back in May. I didn't dream this issue up you know. I just want to solve it.

Actually below is the original post from the other forum and no holster was ever mentioned. Out of 20+ firearms I own, all have exhibited this behavior if I induce it.

I hope you get it resolved for your peace of mind.


Quote:
i removed MY M&P SHIELD from my pocket this morning and noticed that the guide rod was sticking out of the end of the slide a little bit. closer inspection showed me that the gun was out of battery. apparently when i put it in my pocket i knocked the slide out of battery; this is somewhat common....but the bad thing is that the slide doesnt return on its own.

unloaded this doesnt happen, but loaded its repeatable 100% of the time. im unsure if the gun will fire or not, but i dont want to find out and get a KB either.

 

[Lost Lake]

Out of 20+ firearms I own, all have exhibited this behavior if I induce it.

I hope you get it resolved for your peace of mind.

All of yours do this??

Wow. I wonder why.

NONE of mine do this. Not even my .22's. My semi-auto center fire rifles will but they have a rotating locking bolt.

And again, let's not worry about 'self-induced' problems. The press check is a way to see if it does it, but what we are worried about is an accidental OOB condition caused by a pocket, holster, bump, nudge, hit, grab, shove, whatever....

Remember the two guys fighting on the ground recently in the news? One was a neighborhood watch and one was a younger man.

If the bottom man were to pull a Shield out to defend himself, and press it into the coat of the man on top, there is a very real possibility that the gun would be knocked OOB and not fire. Even if he could back the gun away a few inches, it would be OOB and not fire.

It's just not acceptable.

I still haven't found my Dremel to try and polish the slide bump. I'm really thinking hard about that scratch I have on the trigger bar, and considering bending the trigger bar tab a bit.

Then I just think I should send it back and see what S&W says. Or sell it and buy a nice 3913TSW.

I'm going to call S&W. I'll report back.

 

[M29since14]

"I'm going to call S&W. I'll report back.
__________________
Kirk / Spock 2016"

Mr. Scott! One to beam up!

 

[Smitty357]

Out of 20+ firearms I own, all have exhibited this behavior if I induce it.

I thought I was the only one who was bored enough to attempt this with my other weapons as well. I've self induced this problem a few different hand weapons. However i will say, I cant NOT get this to work with any of my 1911's.

I have a few LEO buddies who can make this happen with their Glocks as well as their Sigs. But as you can see, law enforcement doesnt seem to have a problem with it. And im sure they put themselves in much more dangerous situations compared to the average CC citizen does.

PS: Just to touch up on the subject. I did a small test with my theory of "ive never dropped it from 2 stories". Well in fact now i have dropped it from 2 stories (OK, 15 feet honestly) onto the grass at least. It still doesnt go OOB, but out of the 3 drops i attempted the magazine did come out 1 time. I assume its the way it hit the ground somewhere along the way. Also the safety did flip back to the Fire position on one of those drops. However, the weapon never accidentally fired and it never went OOB. I was actually able to go down to the weapon, pick it up and instantly start firing. As for the 1 time the magazine was released, the weapon still instantly fired the round that was in the chamber. Obviously I had to put the mag in since it released.......It's pretty much what i expected as far as whether the weapon would bump OOB and whether or not it would fire.

 

[Storm40]

All of yours do this??

Wow. I wonder why.

Meaning?

You seem to have an issue with anyone and everyone who has a different experience than you. 24 years as a LEO and have wrestled with people and none of them failed even though I can induce the "problem". OOB was the least of my concerns in those situations.

 

[Dikinalaska]

I thought I was the only one who was bored enough to attempt this with my other weapons as well. I've self induced this problem a few different hand weapons. However i will say, I cant NOT get this to work with any of my 1911's.

I have a few LEO buddies who can make this happen with their Glocks as well as their Sigs. But as you can see, law enforcement doesnt seem to have a problem with it. And im sure they put themselves in much more dangerous situations compared to the average CC citizen does.

PS: Just to touch up on the subject. I did a small test with my theory of "ive never dropped it from 2 stories". Well in fact now i have dropped it from 2 stories (OK, 15 feet honestly) onto the grass at least. It still doesnt go OOB, but out of the 3 drops i attempted the magazine did come out 1 time. I assume its the way it hit the ground somewhere along the way. Also the safety did flip back to the Fire position on one of those drops. However, the weapon never accidentally fired and it never went OOB. I was actually able to go down to the weapon, pick it up and instantly start firing. As for the 1 time the magazine was released, the weapon still instantly fired the round that was in the chamber. Obviously I had to put the mag in since it released.......It's pretty much what i expected as far as whether the weapon would bump OOB and whether or not it would fire.

What if the weapon DID accidentally fire? That seems like a VERY unsafe test IMO. Testing it is fine, but at least do it with the weapon unloaded.

And to put it in perspective for the "issue" that you're so adamant that people leave alone, if your car had a scratch in it would you want to fix it? Some would, some wouldn't. So why not leave the "you guys are wasting your time" out of it and if you don't like that everyone is trying to change the situation just move on. The thread has been cluttered far too much with whether it's a problem gun or not.

 

[Smitty357]

What if the weapon DID accidentally fire? That seems like a VERY unsafe test IMO. Testing it is fine, but at least do it with the weapon unloaded.

And to put it in perspective for the "issue" that you're so adamant that people leave alone, if your car had a scratch in it would you want to fix it? Some would, some wouldn't. So why not leave the "you guys are wasting your time" out of it and if you don't like that everyone is trying to change the situation just move on. The thread has been cluttered far too much with whether it's a problem gun or not.

U dont think im seriously dumb enough to attempt any of that with a live round chambered do you? Of course there wasnt a live round in it at all. It was a dummy round with no powder in it at all. Of course it has a tiny bit of weight difference (no powder) but i dont think that changes much........I just wanted to see if it was possible at all. Of course there is no dent in the primer. So theres no way it "fired" or should we say "tried" to fire. it couldnt have actually fired a round no matter what. But of course if it did "try" to fire, im sure the firing pin would have struck the primer and left behind all the evidence for me. You think?

I put a little safety thought into it before i went through with it. I honestly wouldnt have wanted it to fire a live round and have that round go up in the air and come down somewhere. Or even possible have it fire at me. So i took precaution before doing so.

 

[supplier]

I have a few LEO buddies who can make this happen with their Glocks as well as their Sigs. But as you can see, law enforcement doesnt seem to have a problem with it. And im sure they put themselves in much more dangerous situations compared to the average CC citizen does.

Smitty, you have very fatherly instinct toward S&W.

I'm not LEO, i cannot open carry, I cannot pull the gun for distance over 7 yards and I DO NOT have all training and experience of LEO.

So far i feel safe only if i know my gun will fire if i will draw it.

PS: Just to touch up on the subject. I did a small test with my theory of "ive never dropped it from 2 stories". Well in fact now i have dropped it from 2 stories (OK, 15 feet honestly) onto the grass at least. It still doesnt go OOB, but out of the 3 drops i attempted the magazine did come out 1 time. I assume its the way it hit the ground somewhere along the way. Also the safety did flip back to the Fire position on one of those drops. However, the weapon never accidentally fired and it never went OOB. I was actually able to go down to the weapon, pick it up and instantly start firing. As for the 1 time the magazine was released, the weapon still instantly fired the round that was in the chamber. Obviously I had to put the mag in since it released.......It's pretty much what i expected as far as whether the weapon would bump OOB and whether or not it would fire.

.

with all due respect i'm questioning now your actions and all your posts

 

[Smitty357]

with all due respect i'm questioning now your actions and all your posts

Question all you want, thats ur personal opinion and we are all entitled to it. But keep in mind, i showed the s&w world that the 9mm Shield barrel would work perfectly in the .40 Shield way back in September. And as you can see there are many of us that are still proving my testing to be functional without failure.

So i'm sure this isnt the first time i've attempted testing something that didnt seem like it was worth the trouble.

 

[Dikinalaska]

You still avoid the subject of why, if you're perfectly content with your gun doing that, you continue to post on this thread telling people they shouldn't worry about it. I agree, you have and I'm sure will continue to help with insights and testing, but at this point you aren't helping at all in this matter.

And you never stated you were using dummy rounds. You said it didn't fire, you didn't anywhere state it didn't look like it dented the dummy round so we're just supposed to assume you did this?

 

[Dikinalaska]

was actually able to go down to the weapon, pick it up and instantly start firing.

How do you do this with dummy rounds?

 

[Smitty357]

And you never stated you were using dummy rounds. You said it didn't fire, you didn't anywhere state it didn't look like it dented the dummy round so we're just supposed to assume you did this?

I'm sorry about that man. Next time i'll word it a little closer to the 3rd grade level, lol. (joking of course).

Safety IS our #1 concern when it comes to firearms. I wasnt going to assume the weapon wouldnt fire and risk the chance of hurting anyone. I just wanted to see how easily the weapon could be bumped OOB. Oh well, now i know the truth behind the matter and I guess its just not enough to worry about, IMO.

You guys let me know when u figure out whats causing your problems.

How do you do this with dummy rounds?

You have to think a little harder than usual. And in this case i guess u "assume" i mean fire and empty the mag.

1st: Just do a drop and see what happens. (go down and pull the dummy out, check for primer strikes). 2nd: Drop the weapon again, and now pull the trigger (just to see what happens). Ok now check the dummy round for a primer strike (yep, theres a strike), so its to my believe it fired when pulling the trigger because the 1st time it did nothing.

 

[Lost Lake]

We're getting off topic again.

Nobody believes Smitty actually dropped his gun from 15 feet, and it wouldn't take a drop to induce OOB. A slight bump will do it. A pocket will do it. Not the issue anyway!

Storm40, thank you for your service! I'm assuming you weren't using a M&P Shield for the entire 24 years of police work.

I'll also assume you never pushed a Shield into someone's belly while they were on top of you and pulled the trigger. The fact is, if you did, there's a very real chance it would go OOB and not fire. Even worse when you cleared the bad guy it could remain OOB and not fire. My 3913 would return to battery every time. In that case I would prefer my 3913.

To keep on topic, this is my concern, if you don't share it please don't try to tell me I'm wrong to be concerned. I don't want a gun that can easily be bumped out of battery to stay out of battery. That's pretty simple. That's my concern. Even if the chance is 1 in 10,000 i don't want to take the chance!

I called S&W and they are sending a shipping label. That leaves me just a coupe days to try polishing more parts. I think I'll mark the recoil spring to see if they change that. Anything else i could mark? Maybe the extractor?

 

[Smitty357]

Storm40, thank you for your service! I'm assuming you weren't using a M&P Shield for the entire 24 years of police work.

Probably not for his entire 24years of service, he was likely using a revolver the earlier years. In which we all also know will not fire if a person grabs the weapon tight and stops the rotation of the cylinder. However, the police didnt seem too worried about that issue.

For years now they have been carrying blocks and sigs both of which also suffer from the OOB issue. Now if u combine all the years of revolver use with the years of block and sig use. U'll see that for some reason, they dont feel this issue is of that much importance. If "may" very well be important to you for your own reasons (we dont deny that). But if if weapons that suffer the same OOB problem are good enough weapons for law enforcement. Then they must be good enough for the average CC person. As the police are more likely to put themselves into a situation as u have described above.

I would send it back to s&w, and describe to them the problem you have. Maybe they will explain to you better as to why the weapon was built that way along with several million other weapons from other manufacturers.

I do hope that someday u find the problem, and i hope its worth all the time u put into it. But IMO, its easier to just by a nice little Kimber Ultra Carry 1911 and be done with all problems.