Shield out of battery - time to revisit this issue

[Dikinalaska]

Thank you for the suggestion, I have one like you are talking about and it is just a hair to big. I'm sure I will be able to find something I just need to take the time to look.

Oh ok, I couldn't recall without seeing it, try holding a fine file to it while it's at RPM's, it might wear it down small enough to fit. The last one I had finally come apart was mostly all that soft polishing material, the shaft stayed the same diameter the whole way so you should be able to take it down a bit without issue

 

[Smitty357]

So, Smitty you ready to make that trade????

IMO, i think you should break out ur drimel tool and risk damaging the integrity of a perfectly good weapon. And in the end when u find u have done more damage than good. You will then realize that your weapon never had a problem to begin with.

 

[Vision Remodeling]

Why Quote about the trade and not answer?
Why follow a thread that you have no helpful input on?
Why so concerned about what I do with my property?
I am a perfectly capable of knowing my limitations, I know what I can and can not do safely and effectively. If I want to tweak my weapon to make it a little better I will.
Soon I plan on installing the Apex hard sear and DECAK kit. Would that be OK with you? I will probably be buying and installing a set of night sights as well. Should I ask permision for all of those now or should I check back with you before I perform any work.

I don't see why you continue to follow this. We have all heard what you think about it the first 20 times you said it. I'm still wondering with you being so bent on those of us with the "problem" guns just leaving it alone, Why wouldn't you be willing to trade for one, or just stop following the thread?

 

[Smitty357]

I don't see why you continue to follow this. We have all heard what you think about it the first 20 times you said it. I'm still wondering with you being so bent on those of us with the "problem" guns just leaving it alone, Why wouldn't you be willing to trade for one, or just stop following the thread?

Simple reason not to trade. I bought my weapon new, i know what it has been through. I know it performs every single time i pull the trigger. I know my weapon has been maintained after every trip from the range. There is so much i know about my weapon that I dont know about your weapon. For all i know, u dont keep ur weapon up near as much as i do mine. A weapon is much like a car, without proper maintenance sooner or later its gonna go kaplunk. Yours could very well be one of those types of weapons (i said "could", lol".)<<<<<<<Thats just an example.

Now to add to this story. How many of you have this trouble with the 9mm and how many have this trouble with the .40. Ok now have any of you tested this with the 9mm barrel and the 9mm mag in the .40 slide. And have u tested it with the extended 9mm mag in the .40 slide.

Just for kicks......I can take the spring out of my 9mm and put it in my .40. Then of course put my .40 back together as normal. At this point i have a .40 with a spring from a 9mm (no other changes). And guess what.....Yep i can now manipulate the problem with my .40. Not every single time i do a pressure check but every 3 or 4 times to say the least. But if i put the factory .40 spring back in, now my .40 works normal.

Now if i put the .40 spring into the 9mm. The 9mm seems to function a bit faster. What i mean by faster is, if i try a pressure check, the weapon goes back into battery even easier than before.

 

[Vision Remodeling]

Finally, something Productive I knew you had it in you somewhere. This kind of information may very well be useful to someone who has a 9mm and can get their hands on a 40 spring. I never expected you to trade, I would not give up my gun for the same reason you stated. My offer was to pay for you to trade with another person just to see how you would feel if your gun was exhibiting this same issue.
I tend to agree with the majority of what you have posted but the problem remains; some do it and some don't. I have said it before, I carry this gun, I will recomend it to others and hopefully soon I will have mine returning to battery on its own. It is up to everyone else if they are willing or capable enough to take the same steps I have. The easy solution is to send it back, but I am not willing to part with mine even for a day. For the record mine is a 9, clean and mine, I am happy to have it.

 

[supplier]

....What we are showing is if the gun, SOMEHOW ended up OOB, and the user was not aware the gun was OOB, the gun would go back into battery, on its own, by pulling the trigger.
...
Bob

Bob, your statement is true only in case of press check when slide is pulled back 1/4" or around that.
In case of accidental bump, when slide is moved only 1/8" -1/16" trigger will not help - the gun will not fire, unless slide manually pushed forward to correct OOB.

 

[Donn]

Ok ive been trying to decide here. How do u "bump" it out of battery. Aside from you yourself pulling it back out of battery slightly. I just want to know how you would accidentally bump it out of battery.

Smitty's exactly right. If this "issue" keeps you awake at night, carry a wheelgun.

 

[supplier]

While working the range yesterday I had the chance out on the line to inspect and check a couple more guns belonging to someone else.

The first was a brand new LCP. If the slide/barrel was retracted slightly out-of-battery (while loaded), it required manual assistance in order for the slide to go back forward into battery. Spring pressure was insufficient for it to overcome the mechanical moment of disadvantage of being pushed out-of-battery. The gun ran fine during live-fire (once I pointed out to the owner that he needed to keep his thumbs from pressing against the slide during cycling ).

The other was a Shield 9. I've previously used this gun for an afternoon myself, running different loads through it, and it runs great. The owner (another instructor & armorer) really likes this little gun, claiming he's been amazed that he shoots it better than many of his other guns (Glocks, 3rd gen S&W, M&P, 642, 1911 ). He REALLY likes this gun. It does, of course, run like a top in his hands.

And yes, if the loaded gun has the slide & barrel manually retracted slightly out-of-battery, the RSA tension is insufficient to return it to battery. It required manual assistance. When I causally asked the other instructor if he was concerned about his gun being bumped out-of-battery, so that it required his action to restore it into full in-battery condition, he looked at me like I was pulling his leg and rolled his eyes. He chuckled when I explained the reason for my question (this thread).

I also checked a couple other, larger guns and found the heavier spring tensions of their RSA's to be able to overcome such a momentarily manually-induced position of mechanical disadvantage, BTW.

Nothing surprising to me, all things considered ...

My 3.8" XDm Compact (I believe it's qualifies as full size weapon) stopped having OOB condition after 400 rounds break -in period.

I bought my LCP used (by looks of the RSA rode she has been shot at least 150 rounds before me), and I had at least 300 rounds - my LCP auto corrects OOB condition even with slight push (1/32") on the slide

Last night I also checked M&P 9c from range rental inventory - that gun well (over)broken-in and it does not have OOB condition

Last night I put another 150 rounds through my Shield - it's not a matter of breaking in - it's a matter of the design. Some Shields does not auto-correct OOB situation. I suspect most or all of them, thet their owners do not know about that.



This thread is very valid request for S&W to look into their design and make sure that at least Shield-II will be less prone to such problem like accidental OOB.

Just a side note - around 10 years ago many of you started to enjoyed Motorola V3 phone with all its futuristic beauty and flawless software. It was me who started the communication with Motorola about their flaw in Software design of one of Motorola Timeport models. Many people supported me on-line. Eventually I received a thanks you letter from Motorola and one of the first V3 for free for "helping to improve the product line". WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE – just we need to try to make it happened, whatever some people here, on forum, like it or not.
There is no excuse that some guns can be easily disabled in H2H combat with just a slight bump or a grip of the slide. If we will be persistent – maybe Shield will not be corrected, but the next gun WILL BE DESIGNED with consumer needs in mind and not profit.

Yes i can purchase a wheelgun to FEEL SAFER, because it's 99.9% reliable, but it's not an excuse for any manufacturer to produce a product, like Shield, that is not 99.9% reliable

 

[Skunkhome]

I was a wheel gun carrier for years because I did not fully trust autos so I am very deliberate with my automatics. Funny, I've been doing "press checks" for years but did not know the term til today. Sometimes I find it necessary to push it back up into battery especially if the pistol has a full magazine and don't expect it to go back into battery without assistance. Never really thought about it but just check battery automatically to insure it is ready to go. Same is true after holstering. I don't see it as being an issue.

 

[feelinlucky]

When I bought my KelTec PF-9, the first thing I did was to head over to the KelTec Owners Group, and talk about it. The consensus there was that those guns were "tight" when they were new. This could and did lead to malfunctions. There were numerous reports that these problems cleared up after a few hundred rounds were shot in the gun.

Doing a "fluff & buff" to the gun was highly recommended, and it did work. "Fluff & buff" involved polishing every surface that something slid against, the slide rails, the round contact area under the slide, the feed ramp, the chamber, etc.. There was even a thread with instructions on what to do, how to do it, and what parts to do it on. It was emphasized to only polish, not remove material. The idea is that a "fluff & buff" will do the same thing to the gun that a few hundred rounds of "break-in" will do. It made a noticeable difference on my gun.

Of course there are those who say that you shouldn't have to do anything like this to a gun that is properly made to start with. I don't buy that. Break-in is required on lots of things.

 

[M29since14]

...Of course there are those who say that you shouldn't have to do anything like this to a gun that is properly made to start with.

These are the same people who do not understand that every moving assembly "wears in" as it cycles, whether they like it or not.

If you get some "free" shooting wearing-in your defensive pistol, that seems like a good thing to me.

 

[Smitty357]

Ok just a little more insight here.

Since i know my 9mm spring in my .40 is capable of having the problem manipulated, i decided to do a little test.

I took a few layers of electrical tape on the spring (where it meets the barrel). I did this because I wanted to see what would happen if i made the spring stiffer or a bit longer "in a sense". Of course this isnt fail proof and i dont recommend even attempting to run a weapon like this....Anyways, believe it or not. It pretty much fixed the OOB issue with that particular spring. It has a very slight hickup when going back to battery....With that being said, i wonder if break in is playing a part.

 

[robkarrob]

Bob, your statement is true only in case of press check when slide is pulled back 1/4" or around that.
In case of accidental bump, when slide is moved only 1/8" -1/16" trigger will not help - the gun will not fire, unless slide manually pushed forward to correct OOB.

Sorry but I have to disagree with you. I would make another video, but since we are only talking about a small distance it is not necessary. This could be the fact that the guns have some degree of parts variation and or the chambered ammunition dimensions can vary. Some Shield 40 mags dropped, and others didn't.

My Shield 40 goes back into battery, on its own, if the slide is only pulled back up to 1/8 inch or less. At 3/16 inch or more, it will hang OOB. Then as my video shows by pulling the trigger it goes back into full battery every time, and if I continue to pull the trigger the striker releases. My gun continues to display these same characteristics when I pull the slide back, up to the point it ejects the casing. That is as long as I allow the slide to close so slowly as to cause the OOB condition.

I think we can all agree that when the slide retracts, the striker is cocked on the forward movement. When the gun is in battery the striker should release when the trigger is pulled (trigger bar loop pushes sear up in front, and sear moves down at the rear, releasing the striker). If the gun is not in battery, the trigger bar is held away by the reset bump, in the slide, and the trigger pull will not release the striker. When the gun is in full battery, the trigger bar is not held out of reset, and with a trigger pull the sear can be moved, provided the loop has reset under the sear. That is the firing issue, has the loop reset under the sear. If it has, the gun will fire, if it hasn't, then the trigger has to be released to the point the loop resets under the sear. Then the trigger can be pulled to make the gun fire. When you say your gun will not fire when the trigger is pulled, is the striker cocked? If so then the only reason the gun does not fire, is the loop has not reset.

If your gun sticks OOB at 1/16 inch, and the trigger pull does not cause it to go back into battery, then it is not going to fire. You would not want it to fire if it is not in battery. Again we have different results with different guns and different ammunition. If you feel this is a real issue, then send your gun back to S&W. You might get it back with the issue fixed. Or you might get it back with a notation saying the gun performed to correct operation standards.

This is a minor, isolated problem and not very likely to occur. I am not saying it will never happen, just saying it is highly unlikely to happen. I have the issue, but find the only way my gun ends up in a OOB condition, is because I had to manually manipulate the gun to get it into that condition. In 8 months of every day carry, I have never found my gun to be OOB. I do not worry about it. I don't even think about it, except when it is brought up in a thread/post. Again we know some guns have the issue, and some don't. Those that have the issue, the degree it affects the gun will vary from gun to gun. The OP was how can it be fixed. My thought is the stars have to be in proper alignment, to fix a gun with the issue. If we all installed 25 pound recoil springs, the OOB issue would be gone, but then we would have FTL and FTE issues, along with some that couldn't rack their slides back.

The only thing that can help the issue is:

The trigger bar tab has to be aligned to the correct angle (?what is the correct angle?).
Smooth and polish the tab and the reset bump in the slide.
Make sure the friction points are lubed.
Increase the pressure of the recoil springs slightly.
Wait for the alignment of the stars.


Bob

 

[feelinlucky]

I think we can all agree that when the slide retracts, the striker is cocked.

Incorrect. The striker is cocked as the slide moves forward into battery. That striker spring pressure is opposite the slide spring pressure, and means that there is less pressure pushing the slide forward. Add a little extra friction in the right places, and the slide spring can't overcome the combination of resistances. Of course, in normal operation, the inertia of the slide moving forward does overcome these resistances.

Once more... Reduce the friction between all the sliding surfaces in the gun, and the "problem" will go away.

 

[robkarrob]

feelinlucky reply

Yes I wrote it wrong, the striker is cocked on the forward movement of the slide. I edited my post to reflect this. My thought was right, the way I wrote it was wrong.

Bob

 

[supplier]

To Bob:

there is one variation that i did not realised initially - I have 9mm and you have .40. I'm sure recoil spring is tougher on yours, that's why on 1/8" distance OOB is auto-corrected.

BTW, Today i hit 4,000 rounds mark on my Shield (error +/- 2.5% )

 

[GaryS]

The "press check" is for real? I thought it was just a TV thing, like snapping open the cylinder on a revolver to make sure it's loaded.

Hard to believe that agencies would make a policy based on something the bosses saw on TV.

 

[dpowers311]

After seeing this thread I checked my 9mm shield. I can not duplicate the issue with a fully loaded 8 round mag, I can with the 7 round mag. After duplicating the issue I ejected the mag and the first round has moved about half way out of the mouth of the mag. Not sure if this helps.

Dave

 

[supplier]

Decided to sell my Shield 9mm and not to deal with all that OOB stuff. It's posted in For Sale forum or I will take it to the gun show in two weeks.

 

[Lost Lake]

Supplier, sorry to see you selling your Shield.

I've read some great information here and I have a lot of things to work on. I will polish everything that moves and slides even though I don't see a bad spot right now except maybe on the trigger bar. It looks like there is a line or a scratch where the slide bump is scraping the trigger bar and cutting into it. Perhaps there is a bad cant to the trigger bar and it isn't running smoothly on the slide bump.

For the rest of this thread, let's completely forget about press checks. They don't concern me or anyone else. Let's instead consider if a bump, push or fall would move the slide back a small amount what would happen to the function of the gun. This Shield is the only handgun I have that stays OOB, and I have many striker fired and hammer fired guns.

My Shield is getting better just from cycling the action a few thousand times, but that scratch on the trigger bar could be something for us to look at. I will try to get a picture of what I see and post it.....