H110 Data Dilemma and a wide discrepancy....help please.

[peppercorn]

Please look at the two different published data sets for H110 below.
I am new to H110 but have appreciated the chatter regarding it, the need for a mag primer, especially when chilled, and the importance of not getting out of the min/max range. No problem. Can do. Will do.

Here is the issue:

Lyman 49th edition states:

50AE (action express)

Case: Speer
Length 1.280 max
Bullet: 300 grain HornadyXTP HP
1.580" OAL

H-110 Start: 29.7
H-110 Max : 33.0


next up...

Speer Reloading Manual #14

50AE

Case: Speer
Length Max: 1.280
Bullet: Speer 300 grain TMJ FN
1.575 OAL

H-110 Start 33.5
H-110 Max 34.5

The bullets have the same bearing surface and a very near identical profile.

So, is my question obvious enough? Is this realistic, given that it is H-110? Where would I start?
To my uninitiated eye the spread seems very wide and I am not sure where to go from here.

Any advice is appreciated.

 

[Rule3]

It is THEIR test with a different bullet on a different day, temp moon phase whatever.

You can go to Hodgdon on line and perhaps they have even different data,but they do not test that bullet in that caliber.

Lyman also has different data for H110 and W 296 with the same exact bullet.

The issue has been brought up many times regarding the no more than 3% reduction

Use the midrange load for what bullet you have is my suggestions. Yes you always need a Mag primer hot or cold.

I just came from the range, I loaded up full house 44 Mag 240 gr LSWC, Lyman had different dat for the H110, than the W 296 so I went with middle of the H110. Boomers

 

[rockquarry]

Depends on the many variables. The bullets may appear to be similar with the same bearing length, but is the diameter exactly the same? A larger diameter will increase pressure. Did the brass come from the same lot and is the capacity of one the same as the other? Are the two batches of powder from the same lot or different ones? Does one barrel have a tighter bore than the other? If the loads are not pressure tested, it's at the discretion of the tester as to what constitutes a safe load. If the loads are pressure tested, it's unlikely two technicians will come up with the same pressure figures, though, for our benefit we hope they are close... Start low.

 

[peppercorn]

It is THEIR test with a different bullet on a different day, temp moon phase whatever.

You can go to Hodgdon on line and perhaps they have even different data,but they do not test that bullet in that caliber.

Lyman also has different data for H110 and W 296 with the same exact bullet.

The issue has been brought up many times regarding the no more than 3% reduction

Use the midrange load for what bullet you have is my suggestions. Yes you always need a Mag primer hot or cold.

I just came from the range, I loaded up full house 44 Mag 240 gr LSWC, Lyman had different dat for the H110, than the W 296 so I went with middle of the H110. Boomers

H-110 under lead?! I wouldn't have thought to try that but I'll have to take a look, now that you mention it.

Back to the 50AE. So, I think I will start at right at 30.0 grns and go from there.

Depends on the many variables. The bullets may appear to be similar with the same bearing length, but is the diameter exactly the same? A larger diameter will increase pressure. Did the brass come from the same lot and is the capacity of one the same as the other? Are the two batches of powder from the same lot or different ones? Does one barrel have a tighter bore than the other? If the loads are not pressure tested, it's at the discretion of the tester as to what constitutes a safe load. If the loads are pressure tested, it's unlikely two technicians will come up with the same pressure figures, though, for our benefit we hope they are close...

Good points, all of them. I guess I expected to see the data within a grain or two either way.

 

[Rule3]

Lymans CAST manual, it's all lead

Hard cast lead not the swagged soft stuff, no gas checks

The XTP and GD are really very different bullets what bullet are you using??

 

[bluetopper]

In my opinion..........loading data is merely a guide, it is not a Bible.

 

[peppercorn]

Lymans CAST manual, it's all lead

Hard cast lead not the swagged soft stuff, no gas checks

The XTP and GD are really very different bullets what bullet are you using??

I am using both. I see that the GD has a bit of concavity at the base, not much, but it is there. The XTP is flat, as a pancake.

 

[scooter123]

Hodgdon lists only a load for a 325 grain Speer Hollowpoint using a Speer 350 primer. For the slightly heavier bullet the starting load is 29.0 and the max is 32.5. Useful case capacity for the 50AE listed in my Lee manual is 2.29cc and the starting charge of 29.0 grains has a volume of 1.90cc. At maximum 32.5 grains should have a volume of 2.19cc, so in neither case will you be compressing your charge. Finally, on the burn rate chart H-110 is pretty far down the list so as a handgun powder it's what I would call a slower powder.

Now, one rule is that you distinctly want to avoid loading a slow powder under the minimum if there is a lot of excess case capacity. I'm not an expert but IMO a 32 grain load won't be even close to creating a situation where you have a lot of excess case capacity. In fact you should be fairly near filling the case, which is a good thing.

In your place I would try loading 5 rounds with 32.0 grains and look at them closely after firing to see if there is any evidence of excess pressure, such as a flattened primer or evidence of excess pressure on the case head. If there isn't any evidence of excess pressure you'll then want to look at the degree of powder blowby on the sides of the casing. If you see a lot of powder staining on the outside of the case that's indication of pressure that is a bit "low" and you would then want to step up your charge slightly, say 0.2-0.3 grain.

Now as for my reasoning here, that 32.0 load is under the maximum for your lower load data. It's also under the maximum for a 325 grain bullet and one old rule of thumb is that you are normally safe using load data for a bullet that is slightly heavier than what you are loading. In addition while it is under the minimum for the Speer manual I don't think there is any risk of the bullet temporarily "seizing" in the barrel and causing a pressure spike. Basically, if it's too light I think that in the worst case you'll simply have a poor case seal in the chamber and a small degree of gas blowby.

Of course if this were a more "common" caliber such as the 44 Magnum the obvious answer would be to call the bullet manufacturer and Hodgdon for 2 more recomendations. However, the 50AE is such a rare caliber that there isn't a lot of load experience out there. Still, if would definately be worth the effort to contact your bullet provider and Hodgdon and seek their guidance on a starting point. Most likely they'll also be "winging" it a bit but it will likely be on a much better foundation of experience than myself.

 

[Culina]

When in doubt, I always go to the manufacteres website and see what they have posted, I figure they should know their product better then anyone else.

 

[snowman]

Sir,

I strongly agree with the recommendation that you call Hodgdon. I also would definitely not use Lyman's recommended starting load. They are suggesting the standard procedure of reducing the maximum charge 10% to start one's load testing. But Hodgdon emphatically has stated that the maximum charge of H110 is not to be reduced more than 3%, and that to do so will cause inconsistent ignition and possible squib loads. I use H110 exclusively for my .44mag. load. When I worked it up a number of years ago, I reduced the max. charge around 4%, and got unburned powder granules in the case and the barrel. I settled on a 2% reduction and get a complete burn.

Best wishes,
Andy

 

[WILDPIG]

In my experience, when seating to cannelures or even to same OAL, XTPs sit deeper in the case than many other bullets. Thus, less case capacity and higher pressure with equal powder charges. I have not loaded nor compared these bullets in .50

...In your place I would try loading 5 rounds with 32.0 grains and look at them closely after firing to see if there is any evidence of excess pressure, such as a flattened primer or evidence of excess pressure on the case head. If there isn't any evidence of excess pressure you'll then want to look at the degree of powder blowby on the sides of the casing. If you see a lot of powder staining on the outside of the case that's indication of pressure that is a bit "low" and you would then want to step up your charge slightly, say 0.2-0.3 grain.

Now as for my reasoning here, that 32.0 load is under the maximum for your lower load data. It's also under the maximum for a 325 grain bullet and one old rule of thumb is that you are normally safe using load data for a bullet that is slightly heavier than what you are loading. In addition while it is under the minimum for the Speer manual I don't think there is any risk of the bullet temporarily "seizing" in the barrel and causing a pressure spike. Basically, if it's too light I think that in the worst case you'll simply have a poor case seal in the chamber and a small degree of gas blowby.

This is spot on when dealing with H110...to the point in too light of load causing the case being sticky in the chamber due to unburned and partially burned powder between the chamber wall and case wall.

WILDPIG

 

[Rule3]

So if you have both bullets and the Speer manual tested the bullet in a Desert Eagle (which I assume you have also):

Why would you not use the tested load data from Speer which is 33.5 to 34.5 gr of H110 or W 296? for a 300 gr GDHP or TMJFN??

If you need the Hornady XTP Direct from Hornady, I will dig it out in the morning.

As I mentioned and Rockquarry every test on any given day is different depending on who did it and if it was a real gun or a test barrel. Hodgdon is a great resource but they did not test this bullet in this gun.

I do not understand the confusion.???

 

[rwsmith]

Testing

Different test barrels or test guns will be some different. Look in the Speer book, "Why Ballisticians Get Grey". They've been using the same article in their book for very many years.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Lyman 49th edition states:
50AE (action express)
Case: Speer
Length 1.280 max
Bullet: 300 grain HornadyXTP HP
1.580" OAL

H-110 Start: 29.7
H-110 Max : 33.0

Speer Reloading Manual #14
50AE
Case: Speer
Length Max: 1.280
Bullet: Speer 300 grain TMJ FN
1.575 OAL

H-110 Start 33.5
H-110 Max 34.5

The bullets have the same bearing surface and a very near identical profile.

So, is my question obvious enough? Is this realistic, given that it is H-110? Where would I start?
To my uninitiated eye the spread seems very wide and I am not sure where to go from here.

Any advice is appreciated.

First off, both loads are not that far off at the Max end. The Hornady XTP bullets and Speer Gold Dot bullets are different and many time the data for a GD bullet is different from other same weight bullets. When using H110/W296 Hodgdon tells us not reduce the load more than 3% so I would try to hold to that "rule". I would trust the Lyman data a little more than the Speer data although I would not go quite as low with the charge weights as they do. When you run the numbers they are using the much more common 10% rule to find the starting load while Speer did only drop their starting load 3% from their Max.

In this case I would gather as much data as possible and try to find the Max charge you feel comfortable with and reduce it by 3% for a starting load. Below is some additional data for you...

Hornady 9th Edition Handbook
50AE
Case: Starline
Primer: WLP
Case Trim Length: 1.280"
Bullet: Hornady 300gr XTP Mag
COAL: 1.580"

H110
27.7gr 1200 fps
30.1gr 1300 fps
32.5gr 1400 fps
33.7gr 1450 fps

Lyman #49 Max, 33.0gr H110
Speer #14 Max, 34.5gr H110
Hornady #9 Max, 33.7gr H110

With those numbers and since you are using a Hornady XTP bullet I would go with the Hornady data since it's right in the middle and exactly the average of the three. I would say your above statement of using 30.0gr as a starting point is a good choice even though it's a little more than 3% of that Max, I'm fairly sure it's still a safe load because there is plenty of data out there that's even lower without a problem occurring.

 

[Cdog]

My experience with W296/H110 has been totally dependent upon what it's fired from.

I've never blown a primer or split a case uploading W296/H110 in .44 mag, .45 Colt, or .454 Casull. Detonation from under loading has been more of a concern for me.

Back to you're hand cannon of choice, as I state above use caution on which weapon it's used in.

I was using Ruger, Freedom Arms, Thompson Center and other high strength firearms.

I found that I reached top velocity before I ran out of case capacity with this powder. The rest was just a waste of powder and unnecessary muzzle blast.

 

[Skip Sackett]

I've never blown a primer or split a case uploading W296/H110 in .44 mag, .45 Colt, or .454 Casull. Detonation from under loading has been more of a concern for me.

You can quit being concerned about detonation. Fallacy! How do I know this? Physics. Energy cannot be produced only change forms. The power in an amount of powder cannot be increased by how it is burnt because it can only generate the power that is in it, nothing more. If you want to be concerned with H110/w296, be concerned with squibs followed by one that gets more excited! Now THAT is something to be concerned with! Not detonation.
FWIW

 

[old&slow]

H-110 under lead?! I wouldn't have thought to try that but I'll have to take a look, now that you mention it.

B.

Don't think I would try lead in a gas operated gun.

 

[Rule3]

Well ARCH beat me too it with the Hornady data for the XTP so chose your poison

Same Gun Same Bullet different loads from different tests, use the data for the bullet you are using. How much more exact can you get, Well maybe if you had the same lot number of powder

I use the Hornady spread of more than 3% but usually go right in the middle which is in the 30.0 to 31.0 range. I would bet that even the low of 27.7 would not be a problem as in a squib. They didn't just make up those numbers.

Since Hodgdon did not test those bullets I would go with the people who made them and tested them in the exact gun.

If H110 is that much of a dilemma there are several other powders you can pick from.

 

[Cdog]

Detonation or squib aside, downloading is much more a concern for me than overloading H110/W296.

It's great at what it does, but it ain't for wide velocity apps.

Squibs ain't never been a problem for me. In my youth I was accused of using a cheater bar on my press to seat the bullets on cases packed with W296.

I've seen cylinders open, backwards index, etc using 296/110, but no other issues. It's true, God does indeed look after drunks and youthful fools!

 

[peppercorn]

Guys, thanks a lot!

It makes more sense now, especially with the addition of the Hornady data, the explanations about lots, test platforms and so forth.

I am really glad that I asked, as I always come away with more than what I showed up with.