ayetee
Member
I appreciate some advice on whether my sixties vintage Model 25 can safely handle the 185 Gr. Remington 45ACP+P or should I stick with the standard pressure loads? Thank you.
How Strong Is A Fifty Year-Old Model 25?
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The standard factory answer should be a model stamped steel N frame will be ok for +P, but it wouldn't hurt to confirm this with a phone call.
Cpo1944
Member
If that same frame can handle hot .44 Magnum loads, why couldn't it handle the much lower pressure .45 even if it is +p+???
diamonback68
US Veteran
Fire away!
Cpo1944
Member
I just did a quick search on the Hodgdon reloading data site. the highest pressure .45 ACP is 20,000 cup
the highest .44 mag. is 40,000 cup
As you can see there is no reason for concern, your N frame can handle any .45 ACP you put in it.
the highest .44 mag. is 40,000 cup
As you can see there is no reason for concern, your N frame can handle any .45 ACP you put in it.
Doug M.
Member
My recollection is that the .44 Magnum/M29 line had different heat treating than other N frames (wait for someone with more accurate knowledge than I to confirm that), so making that assumption is likely flawed. However, the odds of any load in .45ACP being too hot for that gun are very slight unless you load something really crazy, in which case you deserve what you get. I am not sure that the cartridge case would even have the capacity to get you to that level of crazy, and I really do not want to know if it can actually be done.
andyo5
Member
It is my understanding that .44 magnum N frames receive heat treatment that the others do not. Plus, cylinder walls are thicker on .44s than on .45s because the .44 round is smaller in diameter.
I'd ask Smith & Wesson.
diamonback68
US Veteran
If the same gun can handle the 45LC it surely can handle 45ACP+P.
The only statement regarding +P cartridges in non-magnums that I have seen in S&W literature is that all steel K frames that are new enough to be model number marked are safe with .38 spl +P. Writing in Handloader Magazine Brian Pearce has said 625s are safe with .45 ACP +P and I don’t doubt the same would be true with a 1960s 25-2, but have you actually seen that in S&W literature?
Yes, we could call, but like all gun companies S&W is so busy that it is a long wait on the phone.
Nframecollector
Member
Have at it! Its an N-frame.
OP
ayetee
Member
Thank you for the advices. My concern was the cylinder since it does have thinner walls compared to the M-29.
USSR
Member
The cylinders of the .44 Magnum received the different level of heat treatment, not the frame.
Don
A few years ago a member posted pictures of a mark S&W stamped on the grip frame of earlier 29s indicating the frame had received the heat treatment appropriate for .44 magnums. I don’t recall what symbol it was and can’t swear he was correct.
Manufacturing Super Redhawk cylinders for .454s and .480s Ruger uses a stronger steel than they use for Super Redhawk .44 magnum cylinders. At Rugerforum dot com you can find the steel alloy and links to metallurgy journals that discuss its use and heat treatment. I’ve not seen a discussion of 29 cylinder heat treatment but it would not surprise me if 29 cylinders were made from a different alloy or heat treated differently.
I wonder if a new thread inquiring about frame and cylinder manufacture would draw out an expert or two.
.45 Colt loaded to 32000 cup have been safely used in the 25-5, though they are real thumpers and will rapidly wear the gun. I have regularly used 300 grain bullets loaded to 25000 cup with no issues. Your gun, your call...
TexasRider
Member
I think the answer is Yes it can safely fire those loads.
I also think if you call S&W they wil confirm this.
But they will probably also say something to the effect of " we dont recommend the continuous use of +P ammo ...." and that if +P is used in large volumes then the revolver MAY require additional inspection or maintainance to be performed.
Why would they say that ? These guns are older and they cant possibly know the history of the given one nor its cuurent or past condition. So for 10,000 rounds maybe 2,000-3,000 +P and maybe 7,000 normal pressure . Just to be safe. Will it fire 1,000 +Ps in sucession... probably.
One thing to consider is that the pressure peak in a revolver after firing is likely very short . I would expect it be just a tenth or two milliseconds (0.1 - 0 .2 milliseonds) after firing . The bullet has likely traveled only a short distance. Some loads peak before the bullet has left the cartridge and some later . For these loads I would suspect that the bullet is about past the cylinder gap . When you look at chamber pressures ( at least in a rifle) and graphical plots , you are looking at the breech end. The pressure gradient is falling fast, but the gas has to flow out of the way. The gas can only flow so fast for a given mass and falling pressure. There is a fair amount of "blast" pressure release from that gap when a revolver fires.
So in a revolver, with a vent there, albeit a choke, the pressure is short acting. That said, a big overpressure is still a big problem.
My guess of it is that +P is harder on the small parts than it is on the big parts like the frame, barrel, and cylinder . But even then I am thinking the N Frame has a long life .
I also think if you call S&W they wil confirm this.
But they will probably also say something to the effect of " we dont recommend the continuous use of +P ammo ...." and that if +P is used in large volumes then the revolver MAY require additional inspection or maintainance to be performed.
Why would they say that ? These guns are older and they cant possibly know the history of the given one nor its cuurent or past condition. So for 10,000 rounds maybe 2,000-3,000 +P and maybe 7,000 normal pressure . Just to be safe. Will it fire 1,000 +Ps in sucession... probably.
One thing to consider is that the pressure peak in a revolver after firing is likely very short . I would expect it be just a tenth or two milliseconds (0.1 - 0 .2 milliseonds) after firing . The bullet has likely traveled only a short distance. Some loads peak before the bullet has left the cartridge and some later . For these loads I would suspect that the bullet is about past the cylinder gap . When you look at chamber pressures ( at least in a rifle) and graphical plots , you are looking at the breech end. The pressure gradient is falling fast, but the gas has to flow out of the way. The gas can only flow so fast for a given mass and falling pressure. There is a fair amount of "blast" pressure release from that gap when a revolver fires.
So in a revolver, with a vent there, albeit a choke, the pressure is short acting. That said, a big overpressure is still a big problem.
My guess of it is that +P is harder on the small parts than it is on the big parts like the frame, barrel, and cylinder . But even then I am thinking the N Frame has a long life .
OP
ayetee
Member
The reason I'm asking this question is that I'm thinking about using my M-25-2 on a Coyote in my friend's back yard. I have a M-57 which is perfect for this but I just want to "put a notch" on my M-25 which has never tasted blood.
I'll probably shoot less than two cylinder full of the +P stuff. A few shots to sight it in and a few for the serious purpose.
Thank you for all the help. I think the N frame will be fine for this.
I'll probably shoot less than two cylinder full of the +P stuff. A few shots to sight it in and a few for the serious purpose.
Thank you for all the help. I think the N frame will be fine for this.
Last edited:
TexasRider
Member
Then I say the coyote will bite the dust and the 25 will never even break a sweat or show any effects .
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Heat Treat Symbol
it's this 0
Here's the gun
Back in those days, it was all new. Frames & cylinders were done.
Ned
it's this 0
Here's the gun
Back in those days, it was all new. Frames & cylinders were done.
Ned
Couldn't agree more! Nice grips btw....
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