And in those days, the .45 was King...

OK, so its the early nineties. My bud and I go into a gunsmith's shop in Pasadena Texas. I forget the smiths name but he was a world champion shooter at the time. My bud has his 1911 and me my 4506. Were going halves on some reloads. I got to hold the scoped 1911 used to win his championship. The smith says shake it, and it rattled. He says its supposed to be loose so it will shoot every time. It was engineered that way. Looking at my 4506 he says, this is the perfect police gun. Then he grinds off some sharp edges that would hurt my middle finger after a couple hundred rounds. And polished the outside of the barrel. I did not ask for this service he just knew what a 4506 needed. We bought our reloads and left. After that my 4506 was comfortable for all day shooting, it was already 100% in function. The moral of this story, the 4506 was the perfect police pistol and 1911's are supposed to rattle. Oh yea, use the right tool for the job.
 
The last time I purchased new 45cal wolf ammo it was $6.25 a box of 50rds. that's $62.50 for 500rds.

As far as 1911 accuracy I purchased every vhs and DVD video on how to fix, steel and make the 1911accurate. Doing all the work myself using all low cost parts I wanted to see what a low budget could do. I used a $59 USGI BARREL from SPG, a national match barrel bushing from CDNN it's an IAI $12. Using a FLGR kit from SPG for $9. She now shoots one clover leaf per 8rd mag using the Russian wolf ball ammo. I haven't tried it with target ammo yet. I did all the fitting very carefully of course. Bill

My very first choice in a 9mm pistol was the CZ 85DB In 9mm luger. I found out how awesome the CZ pistols really are. I found this one still unshot in the used pistol case at my LGS for just $299 at the time.
We must remember finding a used s&w is really tough at times I guess because most of the s&w buyers hang on to them forever. But now I'm a fan of the cz pistols too with the cz83 & cz82 also. I will in time.
 
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I have (5) 45 ACP guns with two being Sig's , 2 Custom Government 1911's, and a S&W 25-2 and I still like to shoot all of them.
 
I was buying the lower priced 1911's just to test them to see if there reliable and just as dependable as the more expensive ones. I purchased a new '94 auto ordnance army and a SA usgi mil spec as it was called back then. Both were functioning flawlessly right out of the box even to this day. My point is we don't need to spend big bucks for a functioning and decent 1911 if we're on a tight budget. I owned two bad non functioning New colt 1911's in the beginning. This left me gun and wallet shy with new 1911's. After getting a used norinco 1911 and finding out what all the 1911 hype was all about I decided to buy two more New 1911's just to see if my curse was broken too. I would like to return to testing the other new 1911's too someday. I would love to have the job as an independent tester. I would be honest and say it is what it is too. I found the gun rags rated my new auto ordnance army worse than it really is. It passed my 500rd test flawlessly. As we're the gun rags said it had Jams a few times. The three of us during two range outings cooked off 250rds per visit non stop. Without one jam or ftf.
 
Perhaps the 45 is King perhaps it is not. I will not say it is nor it isn't. I will say this: there is a thang called 44 mag.

If it were not for Jeff Cooper the 45 was on it's way out and the pistol games would not be with us. Evan Jeff was building the 10mm. Remember the Bren Ten? He wanted to better the 45. If the gun used is not a DA but a SA you have nothing more than a SAA 45. I trust not a cocked and locked 45 SA. I question all here. Would y'all carry a cocked and locked revolver? Would y'all allow your wife or daughter to carry said gun?

With all the above said. If a gun company could make and sell a small snub in a 45 that would meet the so called "pocket pistol" size then said company would have the worlds best so call "mouse trap". They,the gun company,would not be able to keep up with the demand and I would be first in line to get one. Smile.
 
keith44spl said:
.
I find the 9mm and .357s to be fine varmint and small game rounds....But,

"If I'm goin' to hub a lit'l hell, I want a forty-five." As ol Hamer said. And I concur.



Recovered 230 gr. / .45 ACP Winchester Ranger............





Hard ball rounds are purty good for penitration........I use ball ammo to dispatch injured cattle on the roadway.

.


.
Click to expand...


From what medium was the expanded bullet recovered?

Just curious...And what was the barrel length?
 
We all know why the Colt 1911 was developed, and it has a good record in the hands of those who shoot it well. I often carried one in the USAF when the option was there. My radar site in Newfoundland had ONLY .45 autos. For a time, I got away with carrying my own Gold Cup there. Otherwise, I had an all-Colt that I'd swapped a few parts on to get the checkered mainspring housing and wide spur hammer that I wanted.

I find it very significant that Elmer Keith once wrote that if he could not have his heavy .44 Special reloads, he'd shoot a .45 Colt. (That's if he had to use factory ammo.) I've used the 45 Colt in a SAA with 4.75-inch bbl. and a New Service made about 1935 and was very favorably impressed. The New Service shot right along with my S&W M-29, and both were exceedingly accurate at 25 yards, offhand. That means like one-hole ragged groups accurate, as well as I've shot any handgun. My Gold Cup was also VERY accurate, especially with Federal's 230 grain Match loads.

The .45 Colt packs a potent punch with just mild recoil, as large-bore handguns go. Has anyone shot anything live with Federal's 225 grain lead SWC-HP load? I liked it on targets but never busted any animals with it, let alone people. But it looks like a very effective round. On a bear or big pig, I think I'd prefer the normal 255 grain RN load for added penetration.

The problem with carrying a big .45 revolver is that you might as well carry a .44 Magnum and have even more power. Alas, the factories seem not to still offer the medium powered .44 Mag. load. That was a real loss to those who don't handload.
 
100_0911.jpg


Ok, so there's a couple of .38 Supers and a .22 in there. But you get the idea.

100_0292.jpg


Model 28 frame converted to a snubby .45 Colt.
I also have a 25-2, two 25-5s and a 25-7

100_0694.jpg


My daily carry gun. 1959 vintage Colt Commander .45acp. This was taken right after I had it refinished by Colt two years ago.

Grayfox's philosophy of self defense:
Bigger holes are better. :D
 
Can anyone point me to actual research using real-world results that shows .45 acp is superior in stopping power to 9mm Parabellum?
 
Darkenfast said:
Can anyone point me to actual research using real-world results that shows .45 acp is superior in stopping power to 9mm Parabellum?
Click to expand...

Handgun Stopping Power, Marshall/Sanow, 1992.

The only 9mm that could top the 230-grain .45 Federal Hydra-Shok (88.37% one-shop stops) was a Federal 115 gr. JHP at +P+ pressure, with 89.28%. This was pushing the limits at 1304 fps, almost proof-load velocity. The .45 load came out of the tube at 819 fps, and was thus just standard pressure and velocity. I suppose if one wanted +P+ performance it could be hotrodded like the 9mm, but that wasn't necessary. These comparisons by Marshall and Sanow have often been challenged, but these are the results cited.

Another more recent study was conducted by Greg Illifritz of the Buckeye Firearms Association (Buckeye Firearms Association | Defending Your Firearm Rights) in 2011. He kept track of stopping power results from every shooting he could find, interviewing gunfight participants, reading police reports, attending autopsies, and reading anything he could find on real-world shootings.

His findings:

45 ACP:
29% fatal hits
Average # of rounds to incapacitate: 2.08
One shot stops: 38%

9mm Luger:
24% fatal hits
Average # of rounds to incapacitate: 2.45
One shot stops: 34%

John
 
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Thank you. My personal feeling after decades of seeing "stopping power" articles is that there isn't a BIG difference between the two calibers in FMJ or in their better-performing HP examples. Neither one is a guarantee, and the best thing you can do is pick a platform (if you have the choice), that you can become proficient with. For many, it's a 1911. For me it's a BHP. For others it's a Glock. All have their places in firearms history, but it's interesting to note that the core of all of them is JMB's tilting-barrel-in-a-slide system.
 
I've shoulder holstered the redhawk in 44mag ever since they were first offered in the mid 80's. My bad back proves I carried it. But I like the 1911 too.

The S&W n frame revolvers and the 1911 just feels like they were made for my hands.

Right now I like the 41mag too.
 
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"9mm is OK for killing Europeans. For truly dangerous characters you need a .45." - Jeff Cooper

:D
 
PALADIN85020 said:
Another more recent study was conducted by Greg Illifritz of the Buckeye Firearms Association (Buckeye Firearms Association | Defending Your Firearm Rights) in 2011. He kept track of stopping power results from every shooting he could find, interviewing gunfight participants, reading police reports, attending autopsies, and reading anything he could find on real-world shootings.

His findings:

45 ACP:
29% fatal hits
Average # of rounds to incapacitate: 2.08
One shot stops: 38%

9mm Luger:
24% fatal hits
Average # of rounds to incapacitate: 2.45
One shot stops: 34%
Click to expand...

That's not too bad for 9mm and 45.

But for real world carry stopping power....

.380
29% fatal hits
Average # of rounds to incapacitate: 1.76
One shot stops - 44%




Uploaded with ImageShack.us
 
PALADIN85020 said:
Duh...head shots??? :confused:

John
Click to expand...

In general, I think that once we get past all the calculators and gelatin tests, the real world performance of various handgun calibers doesn't reveal much difference in actual self defense results. At least it didn't in the study by Greg Illifritz that you referred.

A full size 1911 and a pocket .380 to choose from... If it was for the nightstand I'd say why not and choose the 45. If it was for carry I might just say why bother and choose the pocket .380.

Here was Greg's conclusion:

Conclusion

[[ This study took me a long time and a lot of effort to complete. Despite the work it took, I'm glad I did it. The results I got from the study lead me to believe that there really isn't that much difference between most defensive handgun rounds and calibers. None is a death ray, but most work adequately...even the lowly .22s. I've stopped worrying about trying to find the "ultimate" bullet. There isn't one. And I've stopped feeling the need to strap on my .45 every time I leave the house out of fear that my 9mm doesn't have enough "stopping power." Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important. ]]

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power
 
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