New to reloading.. Charge question.

[chiroptile]

Hey, Guys..

First post.. Very newbie question.. Couple, actually..

I am fairly new to shooting.. Got my first gun last October. Very new to reloading, which is why I come to you guys for a little guidance..

I am using Lee Classic Turret press to reload 357 mags..

H110 powder
125 grain FMJ bullets
Small pistol magnum primers..

Here is my issue..

All of the manuals and loading charts suggest 21 grains of powder to start and to not exceed 22.. Not much room for error there. Lee's reloading manual (same one that lists a 21 grain starting charge) suggests using a powder measure disk that undercharges by about 2 grains.. I used the little Lee powder scale to weigh what the recommended setting dispensed and it came out to about 19 grains.. Now, with this powder dispenser, there is not much flexibility in terms of fine-tuning the charge. Am I just asking for trouble using the H110 powder? What would happen if I tried to shoot that round? And why would Lee suggest using that particular powder charge setting when it doesn't match their printed load data? I see that some of these other powders in the manual require about half the charge that the H110 pushes. They also seem to be more forgiving of the +/- discrepancies.

Another question I have has to do with wear on the gun using this particular load. I have read that H110 pushing a 125 grain bullet has a tendency to erode the forcing cone more so than other loads.. I will be shooting these from a steel N frame Smith.. Since it is a bigger gun, am I correct to assume that it could take a little more punishment?

Sorry for the newbiness.. Just trying to not blow anything up..
Appreciate any help I can get here. Thank you!

 

[BruceM]

Am I just asking for trouble using the H110 powder?

The short and to the point answer-NO.

H110/W296 is a primo propellant for full power magnum handgun loads. Just use as directed and keep in mind that it is not useful for reduced power loadings. I think that you will find that the forcing cone erosion issue has more to do with the 125 grain bullet for that caliber than the propellant. As a matter of fact, full power .357 magnum ammo utilizing bullets weighing less than 140 grains in not recommended for extensive use in K-frame Smith .357 revolvers regardless.

Bruce

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Trickle if needed

I'm not familiar with your setup or using their measuring disk dispenser. I've away used an adjustable dispenser, but if I understand you, the auto disk (1.36?) is dropping lower than you want. Does the next higher number disk drop too high? If so, I'd suggest to buy a powder trickler. Dump the powder from the disk onto your powder measure scale (don't know which one is the "little one"; electronic or beam?) & it should read the ~19grs. you noted. Prime the trickler & slowly add more powder until you get to your desired amount (21.0gr?). It maybe extra work but if you don't have 100's to do, it's not bad. I often set my adjustable dispenser a little low when I'm using powder's that dispense inconsistently &/or I'm loading a max. load so & I can trickle fill them precisely & consistently, all the same. I don't mind the extra effort.

As far as the H110/19.0gr load by itself, Speer #13 shows their 125gr jacketed bullets & H110 start:18.0@ 1154mv & max: 20.0@ 1282mv, so I wouldn't sweat that weight. Don't forget to use a heavy roll crimp for best ignition & to avoid "bullet crimp jump".

Any max load will wear out any gun faster than a moderate load & jacketed are worse than lead. The "N" frame will surely help mitigate wear. I believe the 110grs. get a worse rap than 125s for forcing cone wear. My preference is 140gr. or higher. Hope this helps.

 

[Nframecollector]

Don't go below the minimum charge and don't go above the maximum. It has been my experience that H110/W296 works best when fully loaded. Me, I weigh every charge when loading near maximum loads.

 

[scooter123]

I would suggest that you drop the idea of using that H110 load for now. The reason for this is that the data given may be in error. One aspect I don't like is that it's identical to the line above for Win 296 with one distinct exception, that being the Win 296 data shows the pressure in PSI and the H110 data shows the pressure in CUP with the numbers themselves being an EXACT match. I also question the velocity results given for the top 4 loads, they seem higher than I would expect out of a handgun because a 125 grain bullet at nearly 2000 fps is a big time rocket load for a handgun.

Any time I see published data that seems to be inconsistent with other results on the data table I'm inclined to suspect there may be an error in that data. In this case I believe that we are looking at data that originated with Hornady and Lee is including it in his manual by permission. In your place I would try calling Hornady and asking if that data are actually results from a rifle, what their recommendation for a starting load in a handgun are, and why the Win 296 shows the pressure in PSI while the H110 shows the exact same number in CUP. Note: at the current time is likely that they will simply blow you off on answering these questions because everyone in the entire industry is totally flogged. However, until those questions are answered I wouldn't use this data because I just don't believe it's correct. Take a look at the data that Bluedot is passing along from the Speer #13 and you'll find results that are more in line with what would be expected from a 4 inch vented barrel.

 

[358156hp]

Which bullet are you planning on using? I haven't seen a FMJ 125 gr bullet outside of 9mm, which are likely to be undersized for .357 mag. If you're using plated bullets, like Berrys, etc, then your load is inappropriate anyway because those bullets are swaged soft lead with a light copper plating, and should not be used for full power loads with slow burning powders, according to most of the manufacturers.

 

[MikeyB]

Holy smokes, what manuals are you using? And is this rifle or pistol data?

I went back to my old notes for loading 125gr JHP's using W296/H110 and it was 18gr for a velocity of around 1350 FPS. Looking at my vintage Sierra manual it tops at 19.8gr for 1450 FPS.

 

[Nevada Ed]

110 and 296 are great powders for maximum 357 loads but being BALL powders, they do burn HOTTER than the other style of powders and maximum amounts of powders tend to wear the metal down a little faster than LESS powder but that N frame will shoot tons of ammo before you ever see metal loss.

Many shoot high pressure 110 and 125gr loads but since the bullet is free of its case before entering the forcing cone, I like to keep the velocities down for my practice loads. Nothing wrong with Full bore loads for carry, though.

For maximum speed loads I use the 140xtp or larger bullets in my magnums, if they group well but nothing wrong with ANY load that are 100-300 fps less than factory, if they shoot well in your gun.

 

[fredj338]

The issue w/ H110/W296, it's a max effort powder, period. So as long as you want max loads, fine powder. H110 is alos best w/ heavy for caliber bullets, the 125gr is a bit light. If you want loads between midrange & max, to extend the life of the revolver, then H110 sucks. I find good ole 2400 more forgiving, broader load range & no mag primer needed.

 

[chiroptile]

Thanks, guys.. Made a few rounds last night thinking I would test them out today, but now I think I'm going to pull the bullets..

358156hp, they are Rainier Ballistics bullets. I looked them up on the company website after reading what you wrote, and yes, they are plated, not FMJ.. I crimped them a little on the heavy side, and I understand that's a no-go with the H110.. So that's another strike..

MikeyB.. I was using the loading data printed in the book that Lee included with their press.

Think I might take a drive and pick up another powder.. Can magnum primers be used with any powder? All they have out here at the moment..

 

[Delos]

Sorry if this is long and rambling

Hmm….. I did a little reloading many years ago, and sometimes read articles on it to stay a little up to date.

So far what I have read from your post is that you are new to reloading, and you got your first gun last October….. And you are starting out with a hot load in .357 magnum.

(Only use magnum primers when directed to do so in loading manual. I think they use them for faster more complete ignition of slow burning powders?)

You seem to be getting a lot of good advice. I agree you need to put the H-110 off in a corner for awhile and try something more commonly used. And I learned something about the plated verses jacketed bullets.

When I began reloading in 1960's it was easier for me. I was only interested in shooting cheap lead bullets at 38 special target velocities. Lead bullets conform more easily to slightly different size barrels, and accept reduced charges better than jacketed.

So I think you need to ask and read more about powder types and bullet types, and what happens when you shoot reduced charges. Why do they have a bottom charge?

Let me begin with what little I remember reading. I have read about jackets coming off bullets (Two fast?). Jackets getting stuck in barrel (two slow? - not sure). One article mentioned a gun blowing up with a reduced charge allegedly because the bullet did not overcome the original resistance to the quickly rising pressure. Or maybe that was a theory and the real reason was an accidental double charge? I do not know. The subject has probably been well tested by now.

Anyway without being a burden here I have three older reloading books in front of me and they all use a smaller charge of H-110 than you mention, and all use magnum primers. (Speer 8, 9 and manual 12 - all old) One was using a Model 27, another a Model 19, and the other a Ruger security six, all with 6 inch barrels.

My Speer manual number 12 first printed in 1994 uses a model 19 .357 magnum with 6 inch barrel. Says top load of 20 grains of H-110 behind 125 grain jacketed speer bullet gave velocity of 1282. Bottom load of 18 grains gave 1154 fps.

Over the years they have changed pressure reading from copper units of pressure to quartz using electronic devices. (Oscilloscope measuring the electricity given off when quartz is compressed). Methods of making jacketed bullets has also changed. In other words old reloading manuals are perhaps not up to the changes.

One article I read long ago mentioned that different handgun manufactures use slightly different bore and grove diameter (and rifling twist ?). Then naturally drills wear a little each time they are used. When a barrel or chamber drill gets smaller than the acceptable tolerance they change to a new one. But now days some barrels are hammer forged around a rod and perhaps more consistent in size?

When different but identical revolvers of the same model and same manufacture get chronographed together they can be surprisingly different velocities. That would indicate perhaps different pressures inside the barrel. Are they slightly different diameter or is it smoothness? Is one barrel leaded up a little? Does a small layer of copper make a difference. In the old days using lead bullets at lower velocity you simply used a brass cleaning brush inside barrel on occasion.

Anyway if I were you I would be shooting light charges using lead bullets and a powder that can shoot both .38 special and jacketed .357 magnum. (Brass brush inside of 357 after using 38 special lead bullets. The area in chamber where the 38 special is shorter leads up and can cause pressure rise. If your 357 cartridges drop in cylinder all the way from just gravity all is probably fine.

Light 125 grain bullets are the in-thing because they give best foot pounds of energy. I believe the old 158 grain lead was based on penetration in wood boards (sectional density is I believe how long the bullet is for its diameter).

One thing for sure is that the lighter bullet can use more powder while keeping chamber pressure within required limits. Powder does the work so more powder naturally gives more foot pounds of energy at pistol ranges. Also more gas cutting. At some point the shorter bullet has less surface riding on the barrel so less accurate.

You say you are shooting from an N frame. Good. Heavy to carry but great to shoot.
If you were shooting a K frame Model 19 for example it was built with the assumption most would practice with 38 special and a few .357 mags. Then load the magnums when appropriate. Great weight for carry.

All powders burn from the surface inward. So a round ball starts large and gets smaller quickly. (Maybe best for short barrel pistols depending on the chemistry of the powder?).

I once read about the long strands of powder used in rifles in (WWII?). I forgot but it seems logical they were flat - to keep the burning rate the same down the long rifle barrel. But my faulty memory says long and round?

The subject is long and interesting. Modern manufactures have better steels, powder, and drills. Many dangerous old guns are now history.

So the answer to your question about the other powders with lower velocities is probably yes. But you need to ask others who currently reload and more familiar with modern powders. Naturally the effort by powder manufactures and testers is to stay inside pressure limits, so the lower velocity powders might have the same pressure and just not be the best at that caliber or barrel length. (But my gut tells me H-110 would be better in the bigger shells of 44 mag and such.

I assume some people choose favorite powder because they can also use it in favorite rifle or shotgun? Lately I read references to clean burning?

Once, long ago, a powder was tested as best for 38 special & 357 so sales went up. As they produced more powder the quality control went south.

I recommend you do an internet search (example - H-110 powder is best in what calibers). From what I see it is hot, for big magnums, and some shotguns?

Almost forgot to ask what revolver your .357 mag reloading data was worked up in? Hopefully the load was done in a Smith & Wesson.

 

[TAROMAN]

Here's what Rainier advises on loading their bullets:

We, at Rainier Ballistics, recommend using lead bullet load data when loading our bullets. There is no need for adjustment when using lead bullet load data. Our bullets are jacketed using an electroplating process and are softer than traditionally jacketed bullets; hence the recommendation to use lead bullet load data.

If you only have access to traditionally jacketed load data, we recommend a starting powder charge directly between the listed minimum and maximum load, and you may use published load data found in reputable reloading manuals.

Your bullet isn't listed in Richard Lee's manual.
He does list a 125 grain LEAD load.
A good choice would be HP38/WW 231 (same powder)
Start at 4.6 grains for 1052 FPS.
For plated bullets, its best to stay below 1200 FPS.

 

[Delos]

How slow can you go?

Bye the way. I think I just maybe found part of the answer to my own question about reduced loads.

In my Speer reloading manual number 12 first published in 1994, it has exactly the same bullet, same part number, listed in 38 special loading chart.

It goes down to 905 feet per second. Non of the 38 special loads has H-110 powder listed.

Bottom line is that this same bullet will easily go down a six inch barrel much slower with no problems.

Any problems with sending the same bullet down the tube slower must be powder related? But we saw that in the reduced loads on the .357 chart.

 

[rwsmith]

condensed

Check the data because there seems to be some discrepancy here. Definitely use a reloading manual that has the loads you want to use. The powder manufacturers website is ok, but don't go by anything anybody give on the web, just use it for general reference.

I just checked my Speer #14 and it says that the charge range for H-110 is 18 grains to 20 grains.

You need to start with the minimum load and work up to max.
Make 6-12 of the lower charge and don't shoot the higher charges until checking the lower ones for excess pressure


It would be very advisable to use a scale.

You are going to need true, jacketed bullets to shoot full bore H110 loads. Speer makes a plated bullet that has a heavy enough coating to be considered a jacketed bullet.

An alternative bullet would be a hard cast bullet or a hard cast bullet with a gas check but that is a whole new subject.

Make sure you've got the right sized bullet. Jacketed .38 Special/.357 bullets are .357" in diameter.



If you are careful there is no reason you can't use the H110 but it is hot stuff indeed.

 

[Delos]

Thanks, guys.. Made a few rounds last night thinking I would test them out today, but now I think I'm going to pull the bullets..

358156hp, they are Rainier Ballistics bullets. I looked them up on the company website after reading what you wrote, and yes, they are plated, not FMJ.. I crimped them a little on the heavy side, and I understand that's a no-go with the H110.. So that's another strike..

MikeyB.. I was using the loading data printed in the book that Lee included with their press.

Think I might take a drive and pick up another powder.. Can magnum primers be used with any powder? All they have out here at the moment..

No, magnum primers cannot be used with any powder. Use only as listed in your reloading book. My older (1994) Speer #12 has 5 other powders listed as using magnum primers pushing their 125 grain jacketed bullet. So if magnum primers is all you can get then probably no real problem as long as other powders that say to use them are available. But whatever reloading manual you use -- you should use their bullets also. (Ask others if this is still a big deal).
Use a micrometer on your bullets to be sure they are .357 (check at least a few in each box) and zero the micrometer before using)
With most of us here thinking your reloading data is wrong on size of powder charge, best not to use that charge yet. Double check using other reliable books just in case it might be a typo.
I assume the information that came with the press was not an almost "one inch thick" book, but just a very thin booklet listing loading information? If so you really should buy a nice thick book. Perhaps ask your local gun store what brand ammo and book most hand loaders in your area are using? Others here more current than I can give advice also. Reloading Manuals have large sections of educational stuff everyone should know.
Read This
http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/99412-best-handgun-reloading-manual.html

 

[fredj338]

Thanks, guys.. Made a few rounds last night thinking I would test them out today, but now I think I'm going to pull the bullets..

358156hp, they are Rainier Ballistics bullets. I looked them up on the company website after reading what you wrote, and yes, they are plated, not FMJ.. I crimped them a little on the heavy side, and I understand that's a no-go with the H110.. So that's another strike..

MikeyB.. I was using the loading data printed in the book that Lee included with their press.

Think I might take a drive and pick up another powder.. Can magnum primers be used with any powder? All they have out here at the moment..

Actually an important point left out of your post. Plated bullts don't have crimp grooves, powders like H110 like a good roll crimp. Then a plated bullet won't take high vel, so another no-no for using H110 or sim powder. For those Ranier, at best you are talking 1200fps, so Unique or sim med burner is all you need & a very light roll crimp, very light. Breaking the plating will ruin accuracy & cause leading.
Yes, you can use mag rpimer with other powder. They should not just be plugged in though, you need to drop the charge wt 5% & work it back up, if you are using loads over midrange.

 

[chiroptile]

Thank you all.. Your advice and expertise are definitely appreciated.. Going to pick up some Unique, or 2400 tomorrow and try this again.. Will let you guys know how it goes..

 

[chiroptile]

And perhaps invest in a new reloading manual.. The one I have is actually fairly thick.. 500 pages of load data

 

[rwsmith]

My Lyman manual

And perhaps invest in a new reloading manual.. The one I have is actually fairly thick.. 500 pages of load data

My Lyman manual allows a stiffer load here than the Speer does.

 

[chiroptile]

Guys.. Any pointers on how to properly dispose of primed cases after the bullet has been pulled?