CCW: Keep one in the pipe?

[handejector]

Has anyone mentioned that if one carries C3, one has to chamber a round under what can only be a stressful situation? Perhaps a VERY stressful situation, while perhaps keeping your eye on a situation or multiple people and not the gun.
Does that alone increase the odds of an AD/ND?

If carrying a DA auto with a round chambered and hammer down, it cannot fire till the trigger is pulled. (I'm not a 1911 guy)
But some believe it is safer for my companion, say a nervous old lady, to pull it, rack it in a dark and rainy parking lot, and now be holding a COCKED auto while watching me, a car, and two or three other people?
Nahhhhhhh............ mama will keep carrying one chambered when she's with me.

If you like the empty chamber carry, you're gonna love this-
While we're here, should DA revolvers be carried with the first hole coming up empty?
That way if the trigger is ever pulled accidentally, you hit an empty chamber. It will only take a split second to snap it through the empty chamber and get to a loaded one. Gunfights are supposed to be over in 3 rds, so even with a J frame, you'll have a round left over.
[/tongueincheek]

 

[Rastoff]

If carrying a DA auto with a round chambered and hammer down, it cannot fire till the trigger is pulled. (I'm not a 1911 guy)

Most DA/SA autos have a firing pin or hammer block once decocked. This prevents the hammer from being able to strike the firing pin without pulling the trigger.

On a 1911 without a firing pin block, typically called a series 70 style gun, carrying in C2, round chambered and hammer down, can be dangerous. With this type of gun there is no hammer block. So, a sharp whack on the hammer could send the firing pin into the primer... Thus, C2 is not recommended for 1911 guys.

If you like the empty chamber carry, you're gonna love this-
While we're here, should DA revolvers be carried with the first hole coming up empty?
That way if the trigger is ever pulled accidentally, you hit an empty chamber. It will only take a split second to snap it through the empty chamber and get to a loaded one. Gunfights are supposed to be over in 3 rds, so even with a J frame, you'll have a round left over.
[/tongueincheek]

I'm with the on this one. What a crazy thought!

 

[jlrhiner]

For some, I highly recommend "Tactical Condition BUTTERSCOTCH"

 

[Smoke]

I feel like this is an endless discussion. Its kinda the same discussion about escalation of force. While out of my experience racking a firearm with a round chambered deescalates many situations without that somebody gets shot other people disagree because that would be a wasted round which could have saved your life.
While I never had to point a firearm at anybody here in the U.S , it did work in Afghanistan pretty well

It's possible I'm not understanding you but racking the slide on a firearm with the intent to intimidate would be aggravated menacing in Colorado.

You do not present a firearm as a deterrent, you present when you can articulate a specific action that caused you to be in fear of losing your life or suffering grievous bodily harm

 

[handejector]

(I'm not a 1911 guy)

I should have said the 1911 is not my preferred platform. I built my first match gun around 1963 or 64. That is, I built it myself. The Series 70 was not out yet, but Pre-70s and 70s are the same gun except for the split bushing on the 70s.
I'm very familiar with the platform.

On a 1911 without a firing pin block, typically called a series 70 style gun, carrying in C2, round chambered and hammer down, can be dangerous. With this type of gun there is no hammer block. So, a sharp whack on the hammer could send the firing pin into the primer... Thus, C2 is not recommended for 1911 guys.

I certainly will not advocate C2 for the 1911.
With that disclaimer outa the way, the 1911 has an inertia firing pin. It is too short to touch the primer when the hammer is down on a loaded chamber. It is held to the rear by the firing pin spring.
The odds of firing one by hitting the hammer are not good because the hammer rests against the frame when it is down. I had a 'liberated' 45 in Viet Nam that my CO gave me, but I did not have a holster. I carried it in my belt- C2.

 

[Smitty357]

Your car is your everyday transportation to and from work. Do u keep air in the tires or do u just drive around on flats?

 

[venomballistics]

Has anyone mentioned that if one carries C3, one has to chamber a round under what can only be a stressful situation? Perhaps a VERY stressful situation, while perhaps keeping your eye on a situation or multiple people and not the gun.
Does that alone increase the odds of an AD/ND?

If carrying a DA auto with a round chambered and hammer down, it cannot fire till the trigger is pulled. (I'm not a 1911 guy)
But some believe it is safer for my companion, say a nervous old lady, to pull it, rack it in a dark and rainy parking lot, and now be holding a COCKED auto while watching me, a car, and two or three other people?
Nahhhhhhh............ mama will keep carrying one chambered when she's with me.

If you like the empty chamber carry, you're gonna love this-
While we're here, should DA revolvers be carried with the first hole coming up empty?
That way if the trigger is ever pulled accidentally, you hit an empty chamber. It will only take a split second to snap it through the empty chamber and get to a loaded one. Gunfights are supposed to be over in 3 rds, so even with a J frame, you'll have a round left over.
[/tongueincheek]

yup .. I got into that issue about a mile back with the deer hunting observations.
there have been ND's in those fiasco's .. but nothing I could bust them on. Just got to see some of the mechanical results.
one hilarious account was this guy who saw a beauty of a buck, levered one into the chamber ... levered in another to be sure .. and another to be extra sure and so forth until he finally made the squeeze and heard the worlds loudest click ... The buck bolted and left him staring at 7 live rounds on the ground. Never underestimate the power of pressure

 

[jlrhiner]

Oh come on, doesn't anyone want to know what Condition Butterscotch is?

 

[Smoke]

Oh come on, doesn't anyone want to know what Condition Butterscotch is?

Please enlighten us

 

[Smoke]

It’s ultimately your choice to carry a round in the chamber or not. In addition to the reasons I mentioned up thread, I choose to do so because I want to minimize the possibility of something going wrong at the worst possible moment. I’m already going to be behind the curve I don’t want to add having to reduce a feed jam while fighting the bad guy off to the mix and I certainly don’t want to forget again and pull the trigger on an empty chamber (that is the loudest “click” you will ever hear).

Based on my risk assessment the risk of me needing the gun and having it fail because I carried it in a less than optimal condition out weighs the risk of blowing a hole in my foot

 

[venomballistics]

Oh come on, doesn't anyone want to know what Condition Butterscotch is?

already do know that one ... that was probably one of the most brilliant vids ever to address these issues with utmost absurdity

 

[jlrhiner]

Arrrrgh!

I can't get a link to the video to load! Go to YouTube and search "Tactical Condition Butterscotch".

AND consider yourselves enlightened.

 

[Rastoff]

Carry Condition Tactical Butterscotch - YouTube

 

[Capt.Jim]

Capt Jim --

The reason NRA and other instructors say to leave the gun holstered until you are ready to pull the trigger is in part a safety thing and in part a legal thing, but not just for their liability but for the carrier.

First of course is that if the gun is pulled there's always the chance for a discharge, which goes to your well made comments. But mostly it has to do with state laws on carry. In many states a person can be charged with a crime for pulling their concealed weapon and/or pointing it at someone after doing so (brandishing, endangerment, terroristic threatening), so you train people to not pull their weapon unless you're at the "great bodily harm" stage of the confrontation.

So yes it's largely a legal thing, but not so much for civil liability as to avoid criminal prosecution.

There was a recent article about "drawing" I read when some member over here provided the link about...
I loved that article and i agree with the author.
I never heard a criminal or a thug (let's call it simply a BG) run to the police and complain about that the guy he was about to rob or beat to death, draw on him and he was scared.

No firing action, no harm done, just a simple action early before it hits the fan...
Author was recommending drawing often when you're in doubt or when your senses are tingling.

Damn, may be I am getting old.
Now I know why they label the old people like me "grumpy"!

 

[bluegrassarms]

There was a recent article about "drawing" I read when some member over here provided the link about...
I loved that article and i agree with the author.
I never heard a criminal or a thug (let's call it simply a BG) run to the police and complain about that the guy he was about to rob or beat to death, draw on him and he was scared.

No firing action, no harm done, just a simple "f... off or bear the consequences" style action early before it hits the fan...
Author was recommending drawing often when you're in doubt or when your senses are tingling.

Damn, may be I am getting old.
Now I know why they label the old people like me "grumpy"!

lol. Would make a good "America's Dumbest Criminals" segment.

It's a fair point, and personally the rules I pound on focus on handling safety, specifically finger off the trigger, but in a class where you're instructing the law you can't really say "ignore the law."

The law in most states says in one way or another you don't brandish a gun. There's "run away" and "threat of great bodily harm" and not much gray in between, so that's what you teach.

Legislators are terrified of the "Wild Wild West" scenario that is predicted every time carry is passed, either concealed or open. The opposition always says people will be pulling out their guns and shooting each other over every misunderstanding and fender bender. It never happens, but it ends up IMO impacting the way the laws are written to make touching your gun a disadvantaged legal position unless you are in an obvious threat situation.

I see their perspective which is that they don't want people pulling out guns when they "think" it's a bad guy. No one wants guys being irresponsible with guns. The problem is that it is an abundance of caution that has been empirically disproven over and over again. 99.5% or more of carry permit holders take the use of the gun in any capacity very seriously and wouldn't use such power irresponsibly.

 

[David Armstrong]

Yes, I went to the site. Does this mean you're not going to answer my question?

Actually, I don't care. What I've said stands on its own. If you don't accept it, that's OK with me.

Be glad to answer your question if you will answer mine: before we continue this, would you mind sharing with us your training background and experience with C3?

 

[David Armstrong]

I don't see the need for an argument either. Everybody (almost everybody) with any common sense knows that you should carry with one in the chamber. I stated why earlier in this thread.

Common sense folks. Not the words or wisdom of a few self appointed experts who think differently. For every so called expert there are three times as many true experts who say and teach condition one carry. I WONDER WHY?!

That one is easy. Most folks who are going to get training want to train for a last ditch effort gunfight. C1 is best for that. Most trainers teach to what the customer wants without much concern for how practical it is in the real world. One of the top trainers out there regarding reputation and popularity personally carries a revolver most of the time, but when carrying an auto carries it C3 and loaded with ball ammo. That is what he is used to and what is comfortable for him and what meets his needs. He doesn't teach revolver is better than auto, or ball is better than HP, or C3 is C1 because his student base would not be as adoring.

 

[David Armstrong]

from Capt. Jim:
Just pointing out to those of you gunslingers who is believing that the fractional time advantage you'll gain because of "carrying one in the pipe" is truly will NOT increase your chances as much as you think in many, many situations.

99.9% of the civilian self defense situations doesn't end up with the person who had the 1/10 of a second advantage end up being alive.

In some situations it may even work against you...

True on all points. Thus the repeated suggestion to figure out what works best for each person rather than one-size-fits-all. It is a simple decision on where you want to place the greatest risk factors, in the shooting arena or in the carry arena. Usually there won't be enough difference to matter.

The whole point of this controversial subject's discussion is, that there is no ONE single correct method of carrying.
Especially for civilians who do not have the obligation to chase down after the BGs and involve in dangerous situations like LEOs do on a daily basis.
You evaluate the risks and decide how do you want to carry.

+1, and thanks for the good summary.

All I am saying is that, carrying a gun with a loaded chamber or empty chamber as a CCW involves some risks.
People choose which risk they'd like to take and determine their type of gun and their style to carry.
There is no one single way of correct method of carrying.
There are different methods of carrying.

Again a big +1 and QFT.

 

[David Armstrong]

Cpt. Jim,
I agree that the common denominator in all NDs is the human. In relation to my comment, I still stand by it.

The main concern about carrying with one in the chamber is that it will fire. I submit that with every modern firearm it will not, cannot, fire while in the holster. Which is where it should stay until defense is necessary. I'll go even further and say that the series of events necessary for the gun to fire even when outside the holster is so unlikely as to be impossible as well.

It's only when a person is handling the gun that it will go off. Thus, even though it takes an extra step, C3 is not protection against such.

Since most handling is administrative in nature C3 obviously can and does provide an extra level of protection. That is why the most common bit of wisdom in places where there will be administrative handling is "unload your firearm." Lots of reasons to take the gun out of the holster besides defense. In fact, I'd bet that a large portion of the participants in this forum have taken their gun out of the holster at least once in the last week for non-defense purposes.

 

[S&W45Colt]

Carry it without ammo in it period. That way you can throw it like a rock. In fact if you put a rope around it, you can twirl it around your head..... very intimidating!!

Plus, I never have to take my bullet out of my pocket!!!