Just another day.

I don't know how many times this has to be hashed out.:rolleyes:

Open carry is simply a statement which say's "LOOK AT ME!!"

Nothing more. It does NOTHING to help our 2A rights.

Anti gun folks need to be educated. But they don't need it shoved in their face! They need to know that guns are not evil and are completely safe in the right hands. They need to know that there is a legitimate need and use for guns.

If open carry were such a good thing, you would find more of doing it and more of us supporting it. But that hasn't happened now has it?!:eek:

I don't do it to make statement, nor do I do it to say "look at me"

I believe it does help 2nd a (It says right to bare arms, not right to bare concealed) A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Thank God what is "Good or bad" in not determined by how many people do or don't do something!!

Heck....might as well get rid of open air meetings also since most people don't do that either

JMO

rdf37
 
Freedom, Freedom, Freedom. Can't OC where I'm from. I just spent three weeks in Virginia for work, OC is fine there. I didn't participate I like mine concealed. It just felt more free there. I liked it, I liked it a lot.
 
This is a very complex and nuianced issue.

Yes , in the absolute sense there is almost always a degree of tactical advantage of being concealed. The percentage of light weight malfactors who would be detered are also balanced against the hard core bad guys who would simply take you out first in a robbery or assult , or occasionally ambush you for the gun. But for lots of people in lots of environments the difference is not great , and OC can be done with negligable downside.

And yes , it is nesecaru to in some manner to Normalize gun ownership , and possesion. After generations of brainwashing that guns are only owned by criminals and right wing nutjobs , a critical mass of the public must see that * Hey , a lot of gun owners are just normal everyday calm respectable people not unlike me * .

If you OC "right" , it will be nearly unnoticed by the vasy majority. But at the sametime well meaning blatent in their face gun exhibitionish has also had counterproductive backlashes.

At least in the inital ground breaking stages , it is probably best to break ground with a well disciplined group than as a loner.

In my neighboring state there is a highly effective state level 2A group. They carefully set about making carry , including OC to be common accepted. Overt events , and "non-events" where a group of well dressed people got together for lunch or dinner in yuppie level restraunts . And everyone just happed to be open carrying.

Of course there was the occasional LE contact. Everyone one was polite , and complient. And followed up with citizen complaints , and mostly positive meeting between group representives and Police brass. Only occasionally was offhand mention of class action second 1982 actions. And in the course of time , improved policies and inservice training , and now the proverbial dispatcher converstaions of " and was this man with a gun threatening anyone ? Doing anything illegal ? Well sir/ m'amm , that's perfectly legal in this state , please have a nice day " .

Yes , I usually conceal. But yes also there have been times where I OC'ed , and it also worked well.

In places where either is legal there is a greater good for both to take place , by at least some of the people , at least some of the time.

But if/ when you are being a 2A ambassador , you need to prioritize , and restrain your 1st amendment activism to wear camo , tactical thigh rigs , and your "Kill'em All ..." T shirts.
 
The biggest argument for allowing OC are actually CC laws. Not that long ago you could be charged here in Florida if somehow your firearm could be seen. This was due to bad written laws but plenty people have gotten in trouble. It might be enough trying to grab some cereals from the top shelf in a supermarket causing a part of he firearm to be uncovered, that was enough to actually get charged. Another guy was riding a motorcycle and his firearm cam slightly uncovered due to the wind...
If OC was legal this would have been no problem, but what do you expect?

We can open carry for hunting or sport activity. So why not generally allow OC when you already have laws when you actually can OC?
But I guess it is the same stupid thing as not being allowed to carry concealed on campus
 
don't know why I was reminded of the Heidi Yewman piece about her month with a gun ... but i was and tried to find subsequent installments.
Instead I found some odd quotes from her second week while all trace of the failure vanished ... it goes on to say she was happy to get rid of the gun so we can breathe easy
 
don't know why I was reminded of the Heidi Yewman piece about her month with a gun ... but i was and tried to find subsequent installments.
Instead I found some odd quotes from her second week while all trace of the failure vanished ... it goes on to say she was happy to get rid of the gun so we can breathe easy

I get a rash when I read her name.
I am wondering how she has made it through all those years. Has she been driving in a car without knowing the road rules?
Has she been taking drugs without knowing how to take them?
Has she replaced a propane tank on her grill without knowing how?

NO!
So why carry a gun without having any knowledge? Shouldn't an adult have enough common sense to educate themselves about an item before using it? There are plenty opportunities available to get training, she just needs to ask. Yet she blames it on the guy who sold her the gun. Is it his job to ensure she knows what she is doing?
Should Walmart require a mandatory training before you can buy some car polish because you might confuse it with liquor and drink it?

I would fully support her if she would have spend the time to get proper training, carry for 30 days and then give her opinion.
Even without firearm training she could just open the firearm manual or go on the manufacturers website to get instructions.
I bet when she cooks a new dish she first reads the recepie and maybe even asks a friend with experience for some help, so why doesn't she do the same for a firearm?:confused:
 
I get a rash when I read her name.
I am wondering how she has made it through all those years. Has she been driving in a car without knowing the road rules?
Has she been taking drugs without knowing how to take them?
Has she replaced a propane tank on her grill without knowing how?

NO!
So why carry a gun without having any knowledge? Shouldn't an adult have enough common sense to educate themselves about an item before using it? There are plenty opportunities available to get training, she just needs to ask. Yet she blames it on the guy who sold her the gun. Is it his job to ensure she knows what she is doing?
Should Walmart require a mandatory training before you can buy some car polish because you might confuse it with liquor and drink it?

I would fully support her if she would have spend the time to get proper training, carry for 30 days and then give her opinion.
Even without firearm training she could just open the firearm manual or go on the manufacturers website to get instructions.
I bet when she cooks a new dish she first reads the recepie and maybe even asks a friend with experience for some help, so why doesn't she do the same for a firearm?:confused:

nah .. don't dig up the debate ... just the subject matter for review purposes ;) and the rash turns to a warm fuzzy
first article is gone in its original form ... second is missing as well with only a few odd references from it ... the proposed third ... never saw the light of day that I can tell.
 
So OC people you see around are mostly immature idiots or swaggering oafs?

Wow, I guess anti-gun community scared you so much that as a proud concealed carry person and a defender of the 2A, you're finding it normal to call names for the other people on your side of the gun issue...

That is correct, most of the people I see doing it in this town are that kind of clown. I'm not calling people names on my side of anything, I'm reporting an observation. I'm a very good observer.

I'm almost 76 years old, have owned guns all my life, carry concealed daily, and treasure my Second Amendment rights.
And I'm old and experienced enough to know a mall ninja or Wally World commando when I see one. They irritate me, and I believe they give the rest of us the kind of bad name that can be reflected in the voting booth.

This is still a democracy, no matter what the doom-sayers may claim. Anti-gun people vote. It's their right, and lots of them will seize any pretext to vote in laws restricting our rights.

Carry openly if you want to. That's your right. I assume that you do it responsibly and don't rub people's noses in it the way the twerps I'm describing do. I'll continue to hold onto the practical advantages of concealed carry for this crippled-up old man, and call 'em like I see 'em. That's my right.
 
That is correct, most of the people I see doing it in this town are that kind of clown. I'm not calling people names on my side of anything, I'm reporting an observation. I'm a very good observer.

I'm almost 76 years old, have owned guns all my life, carry concealed daily, and treasure my Second Amendment rights.
And I'm old and experienced enough to know a mall ninja or Wally World commando when I see one. They irritate me, and I believe they give the rest of us the kind of bad name that can be reflected in the voting booth.

This is still a democracy, no matter what the doom-sayers may claim. Anti-gun people vote. It's their right, and lots of them will seize any pretext to vote in laws restricting our rights.

Carry openly if you want to. That's your right. I assume that you do it responsibly and don't rub people's noses in it the way the twerps I'm describing do. I'll continue to hold onto the practical advantages of concealed carry for this crippled-up old man, and call 'em like I see 'em. That's my right.

Nobody said, you do not have the right what you think about those few idiots you see in your town who OC.

Like I mentioned before, I came across many idiots who were carrying concealed but they couldn't shut up about it and telling people around them how always they were packing, what kind of gun they are carrying at the moment and on and on...

I am just telling my opinion too.
And, in my opinion ANYBODY who treasures Second Amendment must treasure 100% of it including OC.

With all do respect sir, you do not have to be 76 to recognize an idiot when you see one...
I am sure you were recognizing those idiots when you were 66, 56, 46 and maybe even much earlier years of your life too..

Also those anti-gun voters do not believe you have the right to own a gun even in your own home, forget about carrying one out in the public. Concealed or not. Anti-gun people are not anti because they see few OC people with macho attitude.

My point is OC doesn't turn good guys into idiots, like gun ownership doesn't turn law abiding citizens into criminals and murderers.
All I'm saying is that, it is wrong to poo-poo OC as a horrible method based on few idiots' behavior you witnessed.

BTW I don't (can't) OC because I live in California and it is illegal here!
 
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I don't think anyone is debating that there AREN'T people who do bad things with guns, or who act stupid when they are carrying.

I also don't think that anyone is debating that it would probably be better if these same folks didn't carry, or own firearms. For the most part, everyone I've met here seems to be responsible, safe gun owners who cringe when we see this stuff. When I saw that Bloomberg ad with the "west virginia gun owner" calling for more gun control, all I could look at was how unsafe the moron was being with his shotgun. I looked at him sitting there, and didn't really even hear the words the first time I saw the ad because, "Holy ****, he's breaking pretty much every rule in the book!"

The problem is in advocating that because of these sightings, some people shouldn't be legally allowed to carry, or own a firearm. The problem is WHO decides who is safe and who isn't? Who decides that one person is ok and another is not? To make matters worse, who is so incorruptible that we could trust 100% that they wouldn't just say, Guys with Crewcuts can't carry, or guys who supported a certain politician can't carry, or certain minorities can't carry. The issue is that with any system like this we find that we are forced to choose, freedom or safety/comfort. If we can limit the bozos wearing kill em all shirts and carrying openly, then we can limit anyone.

I am all for encouraging people I know who do this stuff to not do it. But I don't think there should be a law. Condemning EVERYONE who OCs beause there are few idiots makes as much sense as restricting EVERYONE from owning Semi-Auto rifles because a few monsters hurt innocents.
 
Open carry is legal in my state but I rarely see a non-LE person doing it. It it is usually a younger guy and they always seem to be carrying a fairly cheap handgun in a cheap nylon holster...I never carry openly. Heck, in my LE days, in harness, I didn't like my service revolver hanging out there in a Border Patrol holster. This was before retention holsters were in general use and one's revolver was always a possible target for a snatch during a struggle. I saw officers who had drawn their weapons and then reholster and forget to snap the retention strap and have their M10 clatter on the street running or in a struggle. Not a good sound. My goal is to never appear obviously armed...If one wants to OC then that is fine with me. I figure the thug will go for the OC guy's weapon and ignore me...Its legal to walk through the jungle with a string of porkchops around your neck...Smart?...Well, that's up to you to decide for yourself. Its no problem for me if you do.
 
All I'm saying is that, it is wrong to poo-poo OC as a horrible method based on few idiots' behavior you witnessed.

I don't pooh-pooh the method. It's legal here, and I wish you had the right to do it if you chose. I appreciate the fact that I have the right to do it in this very gun-friendly state. I choose not to do it for what seem to me to be very good reasons, and I detest the mall ninjas who make a lousy impression by their attitude while doing it.

My position hasn't changed an iota. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. I will, anyway.
 
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Wow...Alot of differences here lol. I love this country and this forum and our great constitution. In some countries we would all get hung for some things we say. Anyway....this post was not meant to seperate although it does i guess. I was just very impressed that nobody seemed to let the gun bother their day and that was what I thought was awsome about my day in Best Buy. Anyway here is my 2 cents worth. I am no mall Ninja, although I did stay at a holiday express last night:rolleyes:. I conceal 95% of the time. However when I am in a suit and am getting in and out of vehicle my suit jacket will come off and occasionally I will walk into store or down sidewalk while open carrying. Praise God I have that right. I am not a cammy wearing gun toteing bandit who just wants to look tough:eek:. However when I am in a pair of dress clothes with a tie and my boots on, it actually looks professional. Most people think I am armed security or something and pay me no mind. Another time may be when I am at a friends or reletives house. It may be while taking a sum of money to the night drop. (easier to pull gun than it is to reach into pants under shirt and aim) . I know...practice makes perfect, but I just aint perfect yet. But whatever the reason is, I am very responsible and in tune to others around me while carrying open or concealed and to me, being attentive to surroundings and knowing how to react is way more important to me than whether I choose to carry open or concealed....They both have their place and they both can be done improperly or properly!!!

rf37:D
 
Back at Post #31 , refering to " somewhat inexpensive guns , in nylon holsters " . Those would be average typical gunowners , using average typical carry gear.

Remember we here on this Board , and similar venues are a self-selecting group of enthuiasists . Here we mostly share a love of blue steel , walnut , and fine leather. And many of us are reaching the *seasoned* stage of life. [ This can refer to both maintaining frames of reference to our formative years , and that we are able to expend discressionary funds on our hobbies beyond the costeffective utilitarian. ] Heck , even the Semiauto oriented sections of this very Foroum are probably closer to todays average handgun owner.

Your typical handgunowner in their 20s or 30s will frequently only own one , or at most two or three of all types ( ie a .22 , a midsize , and a pure hunting gun ) . Somewhat affordable is a major component of "practical and utilitarian" . Within the S&W realm , Sigmas and SD series are very popular , with M&P's being on the upper end. On the larger picture , likewise P Series Rugers , Stogers , KelTecs , Bersas , CZ-82s , etc are mainstream , and Glocks, XDm , etc are upper end.

And synthetic holsters , be they nylon or theromoplastic have been the *new normal* for a good 10 years , and anyone buying leather is either *that guy* living in the past , or making a statement on purpose. ( Hey I like and frequently use leather , but I know I'm old school , and it's a statement I like to make ). The primary execption in today's market is Targus ( made in South America ) is actually stocked in many LGS , and is priced to be competive with upper end synthetics.

But more generally on topic , OC increases the visability and public perception of (whatever impression is being made ) by order of magnatitude , be it for good or ill.
 
I was in Richmond Indiana yesterday at Best Buy. I was concealing but as me and my family were in line at the cell phones, I noticed a young man open carrying. I said nothing to him although I wanted to thank him. Then I wanted to lift my shirt up and open carry also but I didn't. Instead I just watched peoples reaction as he walked around. What was wonderfully awesome to me was that everyone I saw showed little to no reaction. It would be great if all days were as such, and people would just go about there day like it is just another day. I gotta say, that I felt a little safer knowing another gun was there besides mine in case the need arose. Cudos to him and his family and all that were in Best Buy yesterday.

rdf37

Someone else said it for me:
My thoughts on open carry...

Several years ago, when I was still a Police Officer, I stopped by the local Harley shop to grab a part I needed. At that time, I was working an assignment that required that I had long hair and a goatee. I did not look like the Police....in any way, shape, or form. A local Deputy I knew described me as Charles Manson-esque in appearance. I looked dirty.

As I approached the parts counter, there was a man ahead of me. He was talking to the chick behind the counter in a rather loud voice. He was wearing jeans, and a polo shirt, with his SIG pistol in an open top holster. It was fairly cold that day (Mid 40s), so the dress was definitely not appropriate for the weather. Based on how he was talking, the volume, and his mannerisms, it was quite apparent to me that he was trying to impress the chick behind the counter. I stood behind him in line, waiting my turn. After a little while, it was quite apparent that he was so situationally unaware that he hadn't even noticed me (And, at that time....people definitely noticed me...). Being the ******* that I am, I decided to try a little expirement. Because his gun was uncovered, and that side turned towards me, I began to step closer to him. I got within 18 inches of him, and stood there....for almost two minutes. When the saleswoman made eye contact with me, he realized someone was right next to him, reacted in a startled fashion, and finally put some space between the two of us. I looked at him and asked "You finally done, John Wayne? I've got legitimate business, and my time is valuable to me." The saleswoman stiffled a giggle, he turned red, and left.

Had I been what I appeared to be, instead of the Police, I could have easily grabbed his gun, and killed him with it. An "open carrier" was killed in exactly the same way in a gas station in Richmond, VA a little over a year ago. The same 17 year old thug that killed him went on to kill someone else with his gun.

Proponents of open carry frequently put forth one of several reasons that they engage in that practice. One, it is their right. . Two, they believe that they are educating the public.Three, they believe that they function as a crime deterrent Let's look at each one of those reasons.

"It's my right". In the states where open carry is legally allowed....YES, it is a gun owner's right. Quite a few of those states also have provisions for a charge of "Disturbing the Peace" or "Disorderly Conduct" that an Officer can potentially charge a person with, if they create a disturbance. Do I agree with that charge? Not necessarily. That doesn't mean, however, that every Officer feels that way. Getting locked up is always a pain in the ***, as is court, obtaining counsel, and attempting to get the charge expunged (IF the Judge disagrees with the Officer.).

Does anyone remember the open carry movement in California? I do. People were open carrying in California, because a quirk in the law allowed unloaded guns to be carried openly. They freaked out the public, and now open carry is no longer legal.

While it may be your right, depending on the situation, it may not be smart. In rural areas, a gun is a normal thing. People really don't get bothered by seeing one. Get closer to a city, and that changes. Is that the gun owner's fault? No. It is what it is, however. This brings us to number two on the list.....

"I am educating people about guns." No, you are not. You are shoving it in people's faces, in the hopes that they will, through frequent exposure, become desensitized. Education only works upon the willing, not the frightened. By scaring the sheeple, you are turning people away from the Second Amendment. If you want to educate.....teach a class of willing participants.

I will draw a parallel. In numerous states, gay marriage is legal. Some people are very opposed to that, and will never change their minds. Some people are very pro gay marriage, and will never change their minds. Quite a few people, however....don't feel strongly enough to totally have made up their mind. Now, what if gay marriage advocates went to the local mall, sat down, and the men started making out.....to "educate" people? Let's be honest...it would alienate a whole lot of people, and damage their cause. Flaunting your gun in front of people that don't really have strong feelings about it WILL alienate quite a few of them. The anti gun crazies can then say "Look at those idiots. See, we were right. People shouldn't carry guns." Congratulations.....your "education" has had the exact opposite effect.

Lastly.....the "crime deterrent" effect. As a Police Officer, my mere presence did often have a deterrent effect. Open carry can have that effect as well.....IF you are not dealing with a determined, hardened criminal. My department had a well deserved reputation of being very rough. We policed a very violent ghetto. People knew that we weren't to be played with, and that when we went hands on, we went hard. That reputation helped diffuse many situations. There were many times, however, when a hardened criminal would inform us that he didn't care about our guns, or our reputation, and that he intended to harm us. (They always did so in a far more foul manner.) Now, if someone like that isn't deterred by a bunch of badass cops with a reputation for beating down criminals, why would he be scared of somebody in a polo shirt and an Uncle Mike's nylon holster?

Now, let's talk tactics. If you have ever watched a uniformed officer at a convenience store, you will notice several things (if that officer is tactically aware.). First, he will keep space between him and everybody else. No one gets close. Second, he will rest his strong arm over the top of his pistol. Third, he will scan everyone that comes in, and will be aware of where they go. Lastly, he will not turn his back to anyone. Why does he do ALL of those things? Because he doesn't want his gun snatched.

I call open carry "Tactical Moron Carry". Not a single well known firearms trainer advocates open carry, nor do they personally engage in the practice. There is a reason for that. Open carry, particularly in more crowded areas, makes one much more vulnerable. There have been several cases, recently, of open carriers being robbed, or having someone try to grab their gun. As I stated before, an open carrier was killed with his own gun, less than an hour from me. If no one sees your gun, you avoid all of the negative attention, and extra risk.

Most "open carriers" have no weapons retention training, do not carry a dedicated weapon to defend against gun grabs, do not carry in appropriate gear; lack the situational awareness, physical prowess and strength necessary to keep their gun out of the hands of a determined adversary. Every year, numerous LEOs are killed with their own sidearm, despite having been trained on how to keep their weapon, and most agencies now requiring duty holsters that are built to thwart gun grabs. A gun is not a magic talisman, and it is not a guarantee that criminals will leave you alone. Quite frankly, both Law Enforcement and criminals view open carriers in about the same way....as some sort of goofy "wannabe" badass.

Because of my background, I still choose to carry a weapon. In addition to my primary pistol, I also carry a second handgun, in case the first malfunctions, or is somehow taken from me. I also carry a weapon specifically to deal with potential gun grabs. I carry a Karambit style knife, (NO, I do not consider a folding knife clipped into you pocket good enough to defend yourself with.) on the opposite side of my primary weapon. I have specifically sought out, and received training from my local knife fighting expert (A man who trains federal agents in it's use.) I spend time training with it, to keep my skills current. I have many years of martial arts training, and workout almost daily. I am well equipped and trained, and am in the physical shape to fight for my gun, should I be the victim of a gun grab attempt. All of that being said....I would far prefer never to have it be an issue.

Yes, I know that Police Officers open carry. It is a required part of their uniform. How many of those Officers open carry off duty? I don't know any. We usually conceal our guns. We want the element of surprise, and we don't like to advertise. We have gotten the "John Wayne" wannabe badass **** out of our system. We don't like extra stupidity.....we see enough at work.

Personally......I want to be that last, nasty surprise.....Not the first one targeted. So, by and large.....I conceal. It makes more sense for me.

To put the above comments in perspective....I am a gun guy. I shoot twice per week (I have a range at my house). I fully support the Second Amendment, and an American's right to bear arms. I had a concealed carry permit before I became a cop, and still have one. I know that this little piece will piss people off...and I really don't care. Lastly, this was written for the people that open carry when they go about their daily business....NOT the morons that do so to provoke a response from the public, or the Police. Those people are ridiculous assclowns that make us all look bad
 
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@Protected one

I see where you are coming from and totally understand your arguments.

When I open carry here in Florida, which is very limited, I use holsters where you just can't snatch the firearm out.

The reason as I stated earlier why I support open carry is to get rid of bad written concealed carry laws which punish law abiding citizens in case of a unwanted exposure of a firearm. Even though the law has changed slightly here in Florida, the language is still very vague.

Having worked in multiple war zones with close contact to hostile locals gave me a nice experience about open carry. The right holster and training will keep you safe from incidents like snatching a firearm which is a real threat.

After all with a little training it is pretty easy to snatch a concealed firearm, you just have to be quick.
With the right eye you can often spot a firearm, even if it just prints minimal.

Overall we have to make a difference between city and country side. It is ridiculous that a farmer has to permanently change from concealed to open carry and back during a regular day of driving around and minding his business. Yeah I guess nobody would car out here if he doesn't do it but it wouldn't be 100% legal. Of course I am only talking about Florida
 
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"Common sense" unfortunately there are a lot of folks who are severely lacking in this area.
I don't have a problem with those who open carry, in some areas there isn't the alternative of concealed carry. Does it make you a "mark" sure but your armed nonetheless and hopefully aware of your surroundings! Dale
 
Protected One (post #35) summed up and expanded on my views masterfully, especially in the area of "educating" the public. Clear, reasoned, based on LE experienced, and highly readable.

Thanks, Protected One, you said it far better than my earlier stab at making the case.
 
OC if that's what floats your boat, but don't be surprised when/if the police show up. And if you're one of these militant OC types that flaunt your right and go everywhere with a camera crew, don't cry to me if you wind up cuffed in the back seat of a police cruiser.
 
Protected One (post #35) summed up and expanded on my views masterfully, especially in the area of "educating" the public. Clear, reasoned, based on LE experienced, and highly readable.

Thanks, Protected One, you said it far better than my earlier stab at making the case.

Just to clarify; That post was a re-post of someone elses comments on the subject - taken from a different site.
I agree 100%, and wanted to share here.:cool:
 
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