Guy switches from .45 to 9mm after gunfight

[Erich]

I'd like a more detailed explanation on why you ditched the 40 entirely.

My ditching of the .40 was primarily because I'm a longtime handloader and I noted that my (not crazy) .40 handloads (while accurate and powerful) indicated that they were operating at pressures that were right at the edge of the envelope. There's no need for that - the 9 works just as well, holds more and is far cheaper (still not bothering to load it, because I have so much inexpensive commercial stuff), and the .45 is a wonderful low pressure round to shoot and load.

The local Secret Service boys are on the same floor as me here at work - they're all perfectly content with their SIG-Sauer 229s . . . and the cases and cases of taxpayer-funded ammo that they get to practice with. The .40 works fine - but a cost/benefit analysis of the round takes it right out of contention for me.

I'm sure lots of people take to the .40 like a duck to water. While I know a number of people complain about their perception of its felt-recoil as compared to the 9/.45, I never found it to be an issue (same with the .357 SIG). But its street performance doesn't appear in any way different from 9 or .45 (unlike the .357 SIG's, which I'm told has better barrier-defeating performance than the others and thus is appropriate for folks needing such), and it holds fewer than the 9, and it's trickier to load than the .45 (but costs as much retail) . . .

Anyhow, do what you like: I'm not advocating for anyone to do anything - and I only write this because I was asked directly.

 

[Smithsrevenge]

I would have to agree.

Besides, I've never seen a Sig P220 that wasn't dead nuts accurate.

Yep. Hate to say it but my P229 drives nails a heck a lot better than my smith's, my Glocks, Berettas and 1911s. Most accurate gun I own. 10x more than I am anyway. Sounds like the guy in the story had adrenaline shock. Hence the 3 of 8......not the gun. It's the user lol

Sent from my VS930 4G using Tapatalk

 

[venomballistics]

Having worked 100+ Officer shooting along with a far share of homicides, 9mm will almost always get the job done. Today's torso recovered modern SD Ammo are bt a nickel and a dime in size and doing 9-11". Always worked for me?

and that is why it is the last resort.
it is as small as you can go without losing all faith in it.

What a not so gently used bullet does not tell us is how long it took to work.
A bullet that made a perfect pop and drop looks identical to the one pulled out of the guy who just kept charging forth.

 

[zzzippper]

I was deployed to Iraq with an Army LTC who is an ordnance expert and worked on the new main battle rifle. He now works for Remington. He told me that with modern self defense 9mm ammo you will never be under gunned.

 

[chief38]

A carry gun & ammo combo is the same as any other of the choices we make in life, a compromise.

Big & slow, light & fast, more powerful but less of them, easier to shoot but less effective, etc. I guess the choice is an individual thing since everybody's abilities and needs are all different.

 

[dcxplant]

It's the man, not the machine.
Chuck Yeager

A mans got to know his limitations.
Clint Eastwood as Lt. Callahan

Whatever you use, use it well!
Me.

 

[153]

Pecos, because in dozens of cases, it works just exactly as well as a .45 or any other handgun round. Shot placement and adequate penetration are what you need to effect a stop - dozens of other things may get you a stop, but these are the only two consistent things in the now more than 200 handgun killing cases I've worked on.

There's a lot of wisdom and valuable experience in the above quote. It mirrors my own personal observations and those of many others who have "been there".

Three hits out of 8 - under fire is damn fine shooting. Locally the "thin blue line" was recently confronted by an armed suspect, two Officers fired over 40 rounds and got 3 non fatal hits that subdued the offender. Sadly this is pretty typical marksmanship. Back in "revolver days" the shoot to hit ratio was better as the revolvers could only hold 6 rounds.

I'd say if that ex-cop is happier with a 9 than a .40 or .45, let him have it. He's proved himself!

 

[BigBill]

While in the hospital delivering my third child with my misses. We were over the meat wagon delivery rooms driveway. The nurses ran into our room as a guy was being dragged out of the back seat of a car. After being shot 5 times in the gut with a 45acp.
He lived. I was ccw a 1911a1 in 45acp at the time. I ordered those soup bowel Speer 45cal 200gr JHP' s and pumped them to the max. That was 35 years ago.

I'm a lot smarter now and educated. It's knowing your handgun up close and personal. It's practice, practice, practice till you can hit anything at 25yds.

I picked up a used norinco 1911 for $300. I found the barrel bushing was loose on the barrel but also more loose in the slide.
I picked up a $59 New surplus 45acp barrel and a $12 national match barrel bushing and I went to work. I fitted everything and added the FLGR Kit with the 18# recoil spring for $9. My low budget build is ready to test fire. I found out it cycles faster because of the less over travel. She pops out the rounds way faster than its stock form. She's like a race 1911 now. I loaded the 8rd mag with Russian wolf 45acp ball ammo. At 25yds she shoots one three shot clover leaf per 8rd mag even with the loose slide to frame rail fit. Since then I added a disconnector ramp too.

Using the full length guide rod kit keeps all the recoil spring forces within the centerline of the frame and slide. With the 18# spring installed without the guide rod I can hear the spring binding as I pull back the slide slowly by hand. With the guide rod there is no noise.

When I'm not carrying my s&w m58 I'm packing my norc 1911. She constantly shoots clover leafs. I trust it. I do like having the power of a magnum with me most of the time.

She shoots clover leafs no matter who shoots it. I guess I did a good job on my first fitting.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

which would kill you more dead a center mass hit with a .45 or a 9mm-placement and penetration being equal. If there is no difference-then I'm going with the 9 cause it's cheaper and I have more opportunities (17 vs 8) to shoot you before I run out of bullets.

 

[Smoke]

Interesting. FWIW, after working on about 100 handgun killing cases, I switched back to a 9mm. I have a .45, but I don't carry it hardly at all. (And I ditched the .40 entirely . . . .)

Great read, amigo; thanks!

Was there anything about those cases that influenced you?

 

[Highhawk1948]

I have seen 9 mm bullets expand to .45. That's why I shoot a .45.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

I have seen 9 mm bullets expand to .45. That's why I shoot a .45.

But assuming identical shot placement and penetration-which would kill you more???

 

[max]

This is one of the better threads in a long time.

 

[Hapworth]

This is one of the better threads in a long time.

Have a gander at one of the 1911, Glock or general gun forums -- there's usually a knock down, drag out .45 vs 9mm thread every six minutes.

 

[max]

I don't see this as a 9 vs 45 thread. I see some smart conversation here. I visit the other forums, but spend the most of my time here.

 

[trapper704]

While I was growing up in the 50's our family ate a lot of deer and elk killed with a 22 LR . it's all shot placement. I now and have for a long time carried a 44 spec wheel gun short bbl. An old time game warden told my father many years ago that if you have to make a hole in an attacker, make it a big one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I still remember that to this day.

 

[hangnoose]

45-9MM

I don't wanna get into the caliber vs caliber debate either, and yes modern improvements make the differences less. I would like to mention that bullet wounds can be freaky and may vary greatly case to case. NO Such thing as a guaranteed 1 shot fight stopper caliber. I had a kid that shot himself in the upper thigh with a 45. He didn't die nor lose the leg, and was walking on crutches 2 days later. The bullet entered mid center thigh and exited his mid calf, it missed ALL major/important bones, tendons, nerves, arteries/veins, critical areas of the knee, etc, Very weird and a Very lucky kid.

 

[Tex1001]

My ditching of the .40 was primarily because I'm a longtime handloader and I noted that my (not crazy) .40 handloads (while accurate and powerful) indicated that they were operating at pressures that were right at the edge of the envelope.

The .40 works fine - but a cost/benefit analysis of the round takes it right out of contention for me.

If I'm reading you right, the 40 doesn't work for you because you can't effect a significant performance (Velocity) improvement by reloading. The barrier is caused by factory loads that are already at the limits. I can't get a decent velocity boost either, but I can get a reduction in muzzle flash in 40 and 357Sig with no deterioration in velocity. This is a real help for a newbe shooter that wants to move up to full house loads. I've also gotten the financial advantage by loading plated bullets.
I understand your decision. I made my decisions based in the needs of my students. I just thought that you found an angle that applied to me.
I never found it to be an issue (same with the .357 SIG). But its street performance doesn't appear in any way different from 9 or .45 (unlike the .357 SIG's, which I'm told has better barrier-defeating performance than the others and thus is appropriate for folks needing such), and it holds fewer than the 9, and it's trickier to load than the .45 (but costs as much retail) . . .
_______________________
I don't have Alzheimer's- My wife had me tested.

 

[G-Mac]

I have seen 9 mm bullets expand to .45. That's why I shoot a .45.

I shoot a .45 because they don't make a .46

 

[Tex1001]

My ditching of the .40 was primarily because I'm a longtime handloader and I noted that my (not crazy) .40 handloads (while accurate and powerful) indicated that they were operating at pressures that were right at the edge of the envelope. There's no need for that - the 9 works just as well, holds more and is far cheaper (still not bothering to load it, because I have so much inexpensive commercial stuff), and the .45 is a wonderful low pressure round to shoot and load.

The local Secret Service boys are on the same floor as me here at work - they're all perfectly content with their SIG-Sauer 229s . . . and the cases and cases of taxpayer-funded ammo that they get to practice with. The .40 works fine - but a cost/benefit analysis of the round takes it right out of contention for me.

I'm sure lots of people take to the .40 like a duck to water. While I know a number of people complain about their perception of its felt-recoil as compared to the 9/.45, I never found it to be an issue (same with the .357 SIG). But its street performance doesn't appear in any way different from 9 or .45 (unlike the .357 SIG's, which I'm told has better barrier-defeating performance than the others and thus is appropriate for folks needing such), and it holds fewer than the 9, and it's trickier to load than the .45 (but costs as much retail) . . .

Anyhow, do what you like: I'm not advocating for anyone to do anything - and I only write this because I was asked directly.

I too have found the 9mm and 45ACP easier to hotrod than the .40. The factories load the .40 close to redline, the 9mm and 45 not so much. I have reduced .40 and 357Sig muzzle flash with powder selection. I find this helpful with twitchy students. Thanks for the insight, though it doesn't apply in my case.