catcus-jack
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Smith and Wesson like Glock is pretty much giving police departments M&Ps.While I like the M&P and have several it is far from being as good as a Sig.
Texas DPS switching to M&P 9
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fallhunter
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And of officers want more they can buy them real inexpensive. With proof of occupation, Glocks M&P's are $425 and the M&P Shield is $385.
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bobkatwells
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I agree with this completely. I remember thinking the same thing when the Army switched to the 9mm mainly due to NATO standardization from what I remember. But I easily qualified with the M9 and have been a 9mm fan for a long time.
I've found my M&P 9 to be a very functional, reliable and ACCURATE pistol.
walkin' trails
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I seem to recall that the Federal 9BPLE 115 +p+ was supposed to be around 1300 fps, and the Winchester version was slightly slower, and the Hydra Shok 124 +p+ was around 1250. In the early 90s all worked better in the real world than the Hydra Shok 147 that the FBI hung their hat on. I seem to recall Winchester offering the Black Talon in 147 also, but don't know what kind of data it generated. The Winchester Rangers are descendents of that design. The light, fast +p+ rounds worked good on the street, but didn't penetrate deep enough to meet the FBI standard of 12 inches minimum. Ultimately, it's shot placement that counts, and the incidents I remember involved guys who werecompetent with their firearms.
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From what I have read the FBI is looking at the 124gr+P. I spent 39 years as a LEO and have seen enough laboratory tests and real life results to conclude and agree with others that say : Caliber and velocity help, but it is shot placement that separates the winners and losers. Take all of your debate time and spend it on the range. Practice, practice, practice. Any fight you can avoid is a fight that you won.
jtcarm
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Yep I remember that from the. 90s. What I read was the 147-grain load was designed by military spec-ops to be subsonic for better suppression, and given the HP to solve accuracy problems. It was then assumed since spec- ops were using it, it must be the magic formula.
Agree with Shawn that modern 9mm bullets make all the difference. I like the 124+P. Those bullet improvements also apply to the .45acp, making it even more effective than ever. But the 9mm is much closer in performance than ever before.
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If you look far and wide, you will probably not find anyone who disliked the pathetic 147 grain JHPs more than I did. Times have, however, changed.
The FBI's Winchester Q4364 and the slightly newer technology Winchester RA9B of Chicago and St. Louis, and the LAPD/LASD RA9T are just completely different than the 147 grain hollow point bullets of old. They give the required penetration to get deep to the vital organs, yet they expand reliably, even after the FBI's barrier tests.
I think the current 147 gr JHPs do not turn the 9mm into a 38 Special. I think, based upon street results in the aforementioned jurisdictions, that they turn the 9mm into a .40 or even a low end .45.
The beauty of this is that while 9mm has seriously come up in the stopping power world, that does not mean that current .40 and .45 have gone down.
Since most of us are home defenders, private citizens and the like, we are not obligated to carry what the FBI issues, or what St. Louis, Chicago, LAPD or LASD, or anyone else issues.
Thus, we have free choice to carry what gives us confidence. For me, I now (and for the first time in 40+ years) have confidence in the 9mm with the 147 grain RA9B and its non-bonded equivalent, RA9T, to "bet my life" on it. Given my long love affair with the 1911 and its 230 grain .45 ACP cartridge, that is saying something, as I was a big skeptic of the 9mm, but no more.
By the way, if you cannot get RA9B, the 9mm PDX-1 in 147 grain is the same thing, but packaged in 20 round boxes and priced higher.
As to the FBI contract, they just made an award for indefinite quantity, fixed price, indefinite delivery (read: "as much as they want") with a piggyback provision for about a dozen or more other federal agencies, for 9mm ammo. They are far along in phasing out the MP5 and its variants, so other than 9mm pistols, they don't have use for that kind of a huge 9mm ammo contract without something looming on the horizon. By the way, the RFP said the ammo had to work with the Glock 17, 19 and 26 and the SIG Sauer 226 and 228.
I think the fact that the 9mm now meets the post-Miami handgun ammo testing protocol, it is no longer an "interim" as it was back then, until they adopted something better (the 10mm). This time around, I think it is to be the primary issue. The FBI apparently believes the current ammo performance, together with higher qualification scores, less pistol breakage, faster repeat shots, easier training of new agent-trainees, higher magazine capacity, now makes the 9mm a viable option for primary pistol issue, unlike in 1986, when it just a stop-gap measure between Miami and the 10mm.
It is noted as well, that the Bureau Glocks have a bad habit of bending or breaking trigger pins and breaking locking blocks with the .40 caliber, and the 9mm in 147 grain, which is not a +P round, by the way, does not cause the same problems in the 9mm Glock pistols.
The 9mm is also lower cost. All of those factors taken together, along with the fact that larger cities have already switched back to 9mm, along with some other large agencies, and the fact that an awfully lot of smaller agencies do what the FBI does, I think we are going to see a big resurgence in the 9mm.
Some are predicting the .40 will eventually drop off in popularity. I think it already has. I can easily see that all of the distributors with which I deal have much more .40 ammo available than they do 9mm.
Will the .40 go the way of the 38 Super and the strange little .357 SIG? I don't know, but I would bet we are about to see a big comeback of the 9mm.
snowman.45
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Like Shawn, I grew up a proponent of the .45 ACP. When .40S&W came along, I thought of it as an answer to a question no one asked. Further, 9mm was just too "weak" for my liking. In 1993, my department went to the 9mm. We were all disappointed, but happy, at least, to have semi-autos. The original issue ammo was Black Talon 147 gr. Later, we went to the Ranger 127+p+, until we had a shooting in which the jacket separated from the bullet and gave us secondary projectiles. We then went to the Gold Dot 124+p. All shootings since, with the exception of one in which a peripheral hit stopped the suspect, have been terminal.
A couple of weeks ago, my Chief asked if we were due to replace some of our older duty Glocks; 17, 19, 26. He further asked, if we made a wholesale update, did we need to re-evaluate our use of the 9mm in favor of the .40 S&W. We told the Chief that, as much as we were all proponents of larger calibers in the past, we could not justify any such change with the history we have had.
I still often carry a .45 off-duty; M&P 45C, Colt 1991A1, S&W 4566, or even the occasional .40S&W: M&P 40 FS and C. However, most often I find myself carrying my 9mm Shield, or Glock 19. I have no doubt of the capability of 9mm to do its job, if I do mine.
A couple of weeks ago, my Chief asked if we were due to replace some of our older duty Glocks; 17, 19, 26. He further asked, if we made a wholesale update, did we need to re-evaluate our use of the 9mm in favor of the .40 S&W. We told the Chief that, as much as we were all proponents of larger calibers in the past, we could not justify any such change with the history we have had.
I still often carry a .45 off-duty; M&P 45C, Colt 1991A1, S&W 4566, or even the occasional .40S&W: M&P 40 FS and C. However, most often I find myself carrying my 9mm Shield, or Glock 19. I have no doubt of the capability of 9mm to do its job, if I do mine.
jeffhughes
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I have a friend who is a top level DEA operator. He(and the agency) like the 9mm Federal HST 147g, they feel more rounds is better in a gunfight, and are confident in their chosen round...
SuperMan
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Just can't see how the numbers add up....
.38 Special 158 +P LHP at 950 fps from a 4" barrel.
9mm 147 Subsonic JHP at 950 fps from a 4" barrel.
At one time I think it was Federal made a 147 grain .38 Special JHP that ran 950 fps so as to be identical to the 9mm Subsonic.
I worked for Dallas PD for 11 years. During that time the issue firearm was a Model 64 with 158 grain +P LHP ammo. The manufacturer varied from contract to contract but all the ammo ran between 900-950 fps. Officers however could carry any Colt, Browning or S&W revolver or semi-auto from 9mm to .45 Colt. .380 was allowed for Investigators and off-duty. Ammo was ones own choosing as long as it didn't explode or incendiary.
During that time (1977-1988) Dallas officers (2500 for a city of a million) were involved in 80+- gun fights a year. I spoke to as many officers as I could or read the reports. Of the dozen or so I spoke with who had used the city issue gun/load all but ONE changed to a larger caliber gun. Not ONE officer I spoke with who had used anything else changed guns or ammo.
My 9mms are loaded with either CorBon 115s at 1300+ or CorBon PowR'Ball at 1400+. My .38 Super Commander is loaded with PowR'Ball at 1500+ or 9x23 Winchester 124s at 1450...
One of my partners on Rochester, NH PD shot a guy at 6' just under the eye socket with a 9mm subsonic...bounced off the cheekbone and was found in his neck. Fortunately the Sargent standing next to him put two rounds in the guy and three rounds in one second was more than the guy could take...
9mm x 147 x 950 = a 17 round .38....which ain't so Special.
Bob
.38 Special 158 +P LHP at 950 fps from a 4" barrel.
9mm 147 Subsonic JHP at 950 fps from a 4" barrel.
At one time I think it was Federal made a 147 grain .38 Special JHP that ran 950 fps so as to be identical to the 9mm Subsonic.
I worked for Dallas PD for 11 years. During that time the issue firearm was a Model 64 with 158 grain +P LHP ammo. The manufacturer varied from contract to contract but all the ammo ran between 900-950 fps. Officers however could carry any Colt, Browning or S&W revolver or semi-auto from 9mm to .45 Colt. .380 was allowed for Investigators and off-duty. Ammo was ones own choosing as long as it didn't explode or incendiary.
During that time (1977-1988) Dallas officers (2500 for a city of a million) were involved in 80+- gun fights a year. I spoke to as many officers as I could or read the reports. Of the dozen or so I spoke with who had used the city issue gun/load all but ONE changed to a larger caliber gun. Not ONE officer I spoke with who had used anything else changed guns or ammo.
My 9mms are loaded with either CorBon 115s at 1300+ or CorBon PowR'Ball at 1400+. My .38 Super Commander is loaded with PowR'Ball at 1500+ or 9x23 Winchester 124s at 1450...
One of my partners on Rochester, NH PD shot a guy at 6' just under the eye socket with a 9mm subsonic...bounced off the cheekbone and was found in his neck. Fortunately the Sargent standing next to him put two rounds in the guy and three rounds in one second was more than the guy could take...
9mm x 147 x 950 = a 17 round .38....which ain't so Special.
Bob
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Probably better than a 6-round .38 - especially if you plan to miss a lot. The "how many rounds?" thing is always going to be a topic for debate. Indiana State Police just adopted the SIG 227 (11 rounds). Just how much of an improvement this represents over a 220 (9 rounds) is a mystery to me but, considering the expense of new guns and everything that goes along with them, for some it must be a very hot topic.
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Does anyone know which model number M&P TXDPS has selected? Their own training guys have been quoted by the Austin Papers as saying Its a 17 round model. That narrows it down a bit.
Philadelphia Patriot
Member
I carry 124 grain +p HSTs in my polymer 9mm guns, 115 grain +p+ Gold Dots in my steel frame 9mm (a P01 clone, more specifically, a Canik Stingray), 90 grain Gold Dots in my LCP, and 200 grain +p Federal EFMJs (not that guard dog ****) during the winter in my 1911 commander, and 230 grain Gold Dots in my 1911 commander during warmer months (non-heavy jacket months).
IMHO and it clearly that as I'm here in New Yorkistan! Chances are it's all about the cost. S&W (wisely so; and as Glock has done) almost gives LE departments their guns to grab that civilian market share. Works. So Tehas DPS gets low/no cost guns and saves a FORTUNE on ammo costs. Ammo cost for a small dept is up there now (as it is for everyone) SP agencies are carrying a very high cost for ammo each year.
Snakeshift
Member
I know this thread has almost run its course. But to clarify: I'm 99% this is just for Troopers, not the Rangers. I have never seen a Texas Ranger carrying a Sig in the 26 years I've been alive. They almost always carry 1911's (though I have seen a few still packing revolvers!), so I HIGHLY doubt any Rangers will be packing M&P's anytime soon. But I'm assuming all the Troopers will transition soon.
My dept. issued 9mm sub-sonic for a while, till it became apparent that is was ineffective in the field out of a handgun. Rounds were glancing off of bone. It was designed to begin with to be shot out of suppressed sub machine guns. Very glad when they got rid of it.
Maybe they keep the issued SIGs in the trunks of their cars or behind the seats of their trucks, where no one will see them.
snowman.45
Member
Over the years, I've had professional contact with several Rangers. They carry pretty much what they want. As was mentioned above, I saw 1911's the most. I doubt Rangers hide anything behind their seats or in their trunks. Great agency with a great history.
