Sadly - Another .40 Shield Kaboom

[Allen-frame]

After reading through these posts here is just a thought.

Perhaps Shield 40 S&W owners should take their pistol and
any ammunition they intend to use in it and manually cycle it
through the pistol a few times. Doing their best to pull the slide all the
way back and allowing it to go forward chambering the round from the
full rearward position.

Then take the cycled rounds and use a caliper measuring over all length
to check for any possible bullet setback.

If I owned a small pistol shooting a high pressure round I would, at this
point, consider this a matter of course.

Good luck.

Allen Frame

 

[ginzo]

Not really, but if you are afraid of it, wouldn't you wonder what ever happens to the person you sold it to? Just a thought.

I had a 38sp. a long time ago, it got damaged. I had it destroyed.

I have a 40 shield and it has been flawless for about 375 rounds I put through it. But I think it is time to get rid of it because I don't want this to go kaboom on me or my nephew I take shooting all the time.

Selling it, why are you interested in buying it?

My offer still stands. If you think your shield is gonna blow up,I'm offering $100 each. I'd offer more but its gonna blow up right?

 

[2001gmc]

If you were serious about getting it back, I would think you'd be making more of an effort than accepting that excuse. If you received no letter, why aren't you telling them about it?

If they had my property, I would be on the phone every day seriously bugging them about it.

I did recieve a letter. 2 of them. I demanded it back 3 times they dont want to talk about it.

 

[2001gmc]

They aint stupid they know what were gonna do with them. In fact I was honest I told them what I was gonna do. They dont want no part of that.

 

[peterthefish]

I am surprised that no handloaders have chimed in about the round used. A smaller case volume can be more efficient with lighter rounds. It is possible to get very close to 10mm ballistics with lighter bullets in the 40s&w. As bullet weight increases, the larger case volume becomes more important. The following data is from Hodgdon.



BULLET WEIGHT 135 GR.

Hodgdon Powder Longshot



Starting Load Grains 8.5

Velocity (ft/s) 1,241

Pressure 25,100 PSI



Maximum Load Grains 11.5

Velocity (ft/s) 1,434

Pressure 31,900 PSI



That max load is well within pressure extremes. I am not saying that the round in question was within limits, but it can be done.



Good luck to the OP.

Fair criticism there. I checked some books I had and didn't see anything that made more than 1,300 FPS but didn't see that.

That said, assuming they're using / selling commercially ammo using that load, they're ignoring one of the first rules of reloading. Start below and work your way up. Minute variations in test equipment vs actual can cause dramatic differences in actual results.

If the S&W barrel is on the tight side vs the test barrel, it could have a dramatic impact on actual pressure and results.

Likewise, maybe the Shield feed ramp is more disposed to inducing setback even in properly assembled cartridges, turning a max pressure cartridge into a grenade.

I'm tempted to buy one and run a number of types of ammo through the feeding process multiple times to see if setback could be induced, slug the barrel to check for bore diameter / constrictions, etc...

As far as getting the product back gmc and others, the first rule is not giving it to the manufacturer. Now that it's there, I would try certified letters to their general counsel, COO, etc (it's publicly traded so their info will be available on the SEC site or an annual report). I would outline that you sent the firearm in for warranty service and that as they have declined warranty service, you want the firearm returned immediately or an explanation as to why they believe they are entitled to keep your property.

 

[Badquaker]

Have a lawyer send a letter demanding the return. It will likely cost you some money, but you have to make the threat legitimate.

 

[feelinlucky]

I did recieve a letter. 2 of them. I demanded it back 3 times they dont want to talk about it.

I get the idea you're just not that interested in pursuing it. It may be difficult, but you can raise a little hell with them and it won't cost you much.

I would try certified letters to their general counsel, COO, etc (it's publicly traded so their info will be available on the SEC site or an annual report). I would outline that you sent the firearm in for warranty service and that as they have declined warranty service, you want the firearm returned immediately or an explanation as to why they believe they are entitled to keep your property.

This sounds like a good start.

 

[Badquaker]

Fair criticism there. I checked some books I had and didn't see anything that made more than 1,300 FPS but didn't see that.

Double Tap offers a 135g load at 1420fps from a 4.5" barrel. I'm not sure how you hold an ammo manufacturer liable when they clearly post the loaddata.

I have made some 40s that hot. They are not enjoyable to shoot and I would never allow anyone else to use them.

 

[BlueOvalBandit]

I'm sorry, while I skimmed through most of these responses, I don't believe S&W is at fault. There is a scary amount of deformation on that slide, not to mention the brass appears to be split lengthwise. The polymers in the M&P has nothing to do with these KBs.

Without examining it up close and only seeing pictures I'm leaning toward double charge or some other event that SIGNIFICANTLY raised the pressured. Everything in the engineering world is created with at least a factor of safety of around at the very low end 1.5 but usually close to or slightly above 2 and in some cases they are obscene at 10. Meaning it can take 1.5 times the rated pressure and survive. I see multiple areas of metal failure that are distinct pieces so the odds of a defect being in all those areas are slim to none.

Remember while the other ammo may be "in spec" it only takes 1.

Also depending on how fast the pressure ramps up usually determines failures. Typically weakest point will fail first which is the unsupported base of the brass, which usually blows the mag out and cracks the frame. This looks like it was just a detonation.

 

[Roger S&W]

I'm sorry, while I skimmed through most of these responses, I don't believe S&W is at fault. There is a scary amount of deformation on that slide, not to mention the brass appears to be split lengthwise. The polymers in the M&P has nothing to do with these KBs.

Without examining it up close and only seeing pictures I'm leaning toward double charge or some other event that SIGNIFICANTLY raised the pressured. Everything in the engineering world is created with at least a factor of safety of around at the very low end 1.5 but usually close to or slightly above 2 and in some cases they are obscene at 10. Meaning it can take 1.5 times the rated pressure and survive. I see multiple areas of metal failure that are distinct pieces so the odds of a defect being in all those areas are slim to none.

Remember while the other ammo may be "in spec" it only takes 1.

Ok...well, have you seen this yet?
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/321701-new-shield-need-some-help.html

 

[BlueOvalBandit]

Ok...well, have you seen this yet?
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/321701-new-shield-need-some-help.html

And the crack has to do with the kaboom how? Anything could have a manufacturing defect and that was a single distinct failure. Polymer frames don't make barrels split and slides deform.

 

[Roger S&W]

And the crack has to do with the kaboom how? Anything could have a manufacturing defect and that was a single distinct failure. Polymer frames don't make barrels split and slides deform.

OK...Well, just checked my Shields. No such line or crack. Somehow, I feel a little better now.

 

[jdw1951]

Well it has been a busy day. I was able to get in touch with both S&W and Underwood. Here is the current status:

S&W
I contacted the customer service representative listed on the letter I received stating there was no defect in materials or in workmanship. I began by asking them what testing was performed e.g. metallurgy etc. They indicated multiple tests were performed and a report was created. When I asked for them to send it to me they declined. I then asked them to ship my Shield and damaged laser back. I was immediately asked if I would consider a replacement Shield at a significantly lower price than offered in the letter. I then asked if I could select another model. Their response was to select whatever I wanted. The rep also said that BATF would require them to destroy the old Shield with its serial number when they shipped me a replacement. I told them I would call them back after I took some time to evaluate my options.

Given that I have no interest in litigation and was informed that the original Shield is now in pieces it really has no value to me. As many have stated, I should not have sent it to them and looked for an independent lab. After a lot of deliberation, I decided to accept a Shield 9mm since I still have concern about the Shield .40 and my need for an EDC. They indicated they could not find my laser but offered to remove my Big Dot XS night sights and mail them back to me. The timeline for receiving the replacement may be problematic since there is still significant demand for their firearms. After reminding them that they already had my EDC for over 2 months, they stated they would show it as a duty firearm that would get priority treatment. The rep was very professional but it was clear they did not want to send the KB Shield back.

Underwood
I called Kevin Underwood, owner, and discussed at length the ongoing forum posts and the concern with the 135-grain .40 S&W round. He reiterated the ballistic data I mentioned in prior posts. Since it is their custom to test all their ammo in actual various firearm models he plans to purchase 9mm & .40 S&W Shields and perform testing. They had initially tried to buy them but were having difficulty due to the extreme popularity of the Shield. If it is determined any of their rounds exhibit problems in the Shields they will annotate that ammo with warnings to not use it in the Shield. They certainly do not want to exclude any model without having sufficient data to make that decision. As with other high performance ammo manufacturers, at times it is necessary to warn against use in some firearm models. They also are going to keep me updated on the testing progress.

 

[TTSH]

S&W
I contacted the customer service representative listed on the letter I received stating there was no defect in materials or in workmanship. I began by asking them what testing was performed e.g. metallurgy etc. They indicated multiple tests were performed and a report was created. When I asked for them to send it to me they declined. I then asked them to ship my Shield and damaged laser back. I was immediately asked if I would consider a replacement Shield at a significantly lower price than offered in the letter. I then asked if I could select another model. Their response was to select whatever I wanted. The rep also said that BATF would require them to destroy the old Shield with its serial number when they shipped me a replacement.

As a life-long S&W owner/shooter/collector, this is just incredibly disappointing. Send them the "KaBoom" gun for an honest and professional evaluation and you will never see it again. And apparently, you won't get to see any written results or report on it either. It's just going to be a verbal "trust us - our gun wasn't at fault" and too bad for you except that the more you hound us, the better the price we will give you for a replacement gun... just so that we can destroy the incriminating evidence for good. Wow! Just Wow!

 

[Rastoff]

Fair criticism there. I checked some books I had and didn't see anything that made more than 1,300 FPS but didn't see that.

20 seconds on line and I found the same load he did: Set your sights on pistol reloading data | Hodgdon Reloading

 

[JFR]

jdw, Thank you again for the continued feedback! I clearly understand your action on their offer, I think I would have chosen the same thing going with the 9mm. Clearly we need to catch a kaboom before it's sent to Smith and all chip in for an independent lab. Count me in for a contribution to that if the opportunity arises.

JFR

 

[Rastoff]

jdw1951,
S&W has dropped the ball squarely in your court. If you decide to take the reduced cost 9mm Shield, S&W will take that as you accepting their conclusions and you will have no more claim on the report. However, you could demand the report. Of course that would put you in the position of an adversary rather than just some guy trying to get his gun back.

In the end I think you are right to accept the 9mm Shield at a reduced cost.

I will continue to watch for damaged Shields in .40S&W.

 

[2001gmc]

As a life-long S&W owner/shooter/collector, this is just incredibly disappointing. Send them the "KaBoom" gun for an honest and professional evaluation and you will never see it again. And apparently, you won't get to see any written results or report on it either. It's just going to be a verbal "trust us - our gun wasn't at fault" and too bad for you except that the more you hound us, the better the price we will give you for a replacement gun... just so that we can destroy the incriminating evidence for good. Wow! Just Wow!

See they dont want these to get back out no matter what.

 

[PurpleMountainOutdoors]

OK...Well, just checked my Shields. No such line or crack. Somehow, I feel a little better now.

I just checked my shield 9, and it does have that line/marking... *worried*


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jdw1951]

jdw1951,
S&W has dropped the ball squarely in your court. If you decide to take the reduced cost 9mm Shield, S&W will take that as you accepting their conclusions and you will have no more claim on the report. However, you could demand the report. Of course that would put you in the position of an adversary rather than just some guy trying to get his gun back.

In the end I think you are right to accept the 9mm Shield at a reduced cost.

I will continue to watch for damaged Shields in .40S&W.

Yes I felt it was in my best interest to at least obtain a new EDC and continue to monitor the .40 S&W issue. As another poster just said count me in for financial support for an independent test if God forbid someone else has a KB!