Rastoff
US Veteran
How much would you be willing to pay for a self-defense class?
Would you prefer one 8 hour class or two 4 hour classes on different days?
Would you prefer one 8 hour class or two 4 hour classes on different days?
How much would you pay for training?
- Thread starter Rastoff
- Start date
Register to hide this ad
SgtLumpy
Member
If it's limited to 8 hrs total then I'd say 8 classes, each 1 hr in length. Or if you had to, 4x 2 hr classes.
ONE class or two is like attending the lecture part of a college anatomy class. Without the cadaver lab it's really just a bunch of theoretical descriptions.
I would suggest that hardly anyone would become proficient at anything, gun related or otherwise, in just 8 hours - or in just one or two classroom sessions.
Sgt Lumpy
ONE class or two is like attending the lecture part of a college anatomy class. Without the cadaver lab it's really just a bunch of theoretical descriptions.
I would suggest that hardly anyone would become proficient at anything, gun related or otherwise, in just 8 hours - or in just one or two classroom sessions.
Sgt Lumpy
Comrad
Member
I don't think I would pay for any 8 hours of instruction particularly self defense. I believe you either have the instinct or you don't and that is not something that can be taught in a class of two.
Protected One
Member
I can imagine someone coming to martial arts class and saying - "I don't need no training...I have the instincts". To which the instructor would say - "OK, come onto the mat and lets test your instincts". LOL
Perhaps you wouldn't pay for instruction, but that does not mean you couldn't benefit from it. We all can learn something.
Interesting question.
I've taught or helped teach 4hr, 8hr, 16hr & 24hr firearms classes. I've attended classes of those lengths as a student, and much longer classes, as well.
Each had an overall purpose and goals involved when it came to the length.
Of course, being told you only have 4 hours allocated to teach something that is better taught in at least 8 hours is another problem.
Class size, span of control and teacher/student ratios can also have an impact on how well classes go.
You going to start teaching Rastoff? If so, seriously consider getting some sort of liability insurance.
Also, taking some sort of adult learning teaching/training class can be helpful, to give you some different perspectives on how different people most easily (and most effectively) learn. I did the initial 1-week POST Instructor Development a few years ago, even though I was covered under the "grandfather exemption" as an instructor, and it was interesting. More for the classroom training venues than the live-fire range environment, of course, but interesting, nonetheless.
Looking back at my own experiences, I've found that over time I developed the same preference for teaching firearms-related subjects that I did for teaching the martial arts, which is that I'd rather take the advanced students, given my druthers, and let the eager instructors needing to develop teaching experience deal with the lesser experienced students.
Then again, maybe I'm just lazy.
Luck to you, if you're planning on becoming a trainer.
I've taught or helped teach 4hr, 8hr, 16hr & 24hr firearms classes. I've attended classes of those lengths as a student, and much longer classes, as well.
Each had an overall purpose and goals involved when it came to the length.
Of course, being told you only have 4 hours allocated to teach something that is better taught in at least 8 hours is another problem.
Class size, span of control and teacher/student ratios can also have an impact on how well classes go.
You going to start teaching Rastoff? If so, seriously consider getting some sort of liability insurance.
Also, taking some sort of adult learning teaching/training class can be helpful, to give you some different perspectives on how different people most easily (and most effectively) learn. I did the initial 1-week POST Instructor Development a few years ago, even though I was covered under the "grandfather exemption" as an instructor, and it was interesting. More for the classroom training venues than the live-fire range environment, of course, but interesting, nonetheless.
Looking back at my own experiences, I've found that over time I developed the same preference for teaching firearms-related subjects that I did for teaching the martial arts, which is that I'd rather take the advanced students, given my druthers, and let the eager instructors needing to develop teaching experience deal with the lesser experienced students.
Then again, maybe I'm just lazy.
Luck to you, if you're planning on becoming a trainer.
Protected One
Member
If the course consist of "class room" AND physical training, I would prefer two 4 hour sessions. That way, I could use the night to think about what I learned, formulate questions, and be better prepared for the next day.
I used to think I did pretty good practicing on my own until I got a chance to attend a professionally instructed class. I wasn't 5 minutes into the class before I realized how much I didn't know. I can't say how much I'd pay for training because the fact is if I had to I couldn't.
This is probably an easier question for instructors/trainers to answer, as they already accept the necessity for training and continued development, and have (hopefully) already realized there's always something else that needs to be learned, re-learned, refined, tweaked, etc.
I remember when I was sent to a LE instructor update class before my retirement. Before we moved onto the range for the perishable skills assessment & instructor development shooting part of the class (starting the 2nd day), we spent a day in the classroom getting legal updates and checking/reinforcing some basics of our presumably existing command of subject knowledge & experience.
An interesting variation on the old "classroom presentation" requirement was that each instructor student had to take the front of the class and speak knowledgeably on ANY LE firearms/training related topic selected by the other instructor students (as agreed upon by the group). Talk about a tough crowd to please, and definitely not an easy one to fool with bluff or pretension, either. They looked for any weakness in an instructor to exploit.
I remember when I was sent to a LE instructor update class before my retirement. Before we moved onto the range for the perishable skills assessment & instructor development shooting part of the class (starting the 2nd day), we spent a day in the classroom getting legal updates and checking/reinforcing some basics of our presumably existing command of subject knowledge & experience.
An interesting variation on the old "classroom presentation" requirement was that each instructor student had to take the front of the class and speak knowledgeably on ANY LE firearms/training related topic selected by the other instructor students (as agreed upon by the group). Talk about a tough crowd to please, and definitely not an easy one to fool with bluff or pretension, either.
They looked for any weakness in an instructor to exploit.
OP
Rastoff
US Veteran
I've been an instructor for a while now. I'm certified by the NRA in Basic Pistol, Shotgun and Personal Protection Inside the Home. I'm also an NRA certified Range Safety Officer. Along with that I've been teaching Kenpo for about 6-7 years. I'm also certified by the Air Force to develop and teach Air Force courses.
Thank you for being the only one who at least answered part of my question.If the course consist of "class room" AND physical training, I would prefer two 4 hour sessions. That way, I could use the night to think about what I learned, formulate questions, and be better prepared for the next day.
Hogwash! I'm sure you paid for your CCW license and that included some kind of training. You just finished saying that you've learned how valuable the training is. The truth is you could pay something. The question is what would you be willing to pay? $1? $50? $500?
This may be true, but I'm more interested in those who aren't in this position. Why? Because I see a lack of training and I want to spark an interest in those who really need it, but have little avenue to pursue it.This is probably an easier question for instructors/trainers to answer, as they already accept the necessity for training and continued development, and have (hopefully) already realized there's always something else that needs to be learned, re-learned, refined, tweaked, etc.
I relish this kind of class, as long as they aren't unruly. It only hones my own knowledge and skills.Talk about a tough crowd to please, and definitely not an easy one to fool with bluff or pretension, either.
No one day or two day class can turn a beginner into an expert. That takes time and work. However, what it can do is start a person on the path of improvement. It can give them the basics necessary to be able to practice effectively. Just shooting at the range does not make you ready to defend yourself.
"Either you have the instinct or you don't" is absolute rubbish. Yes, there are those with more aptitude toward self-defense and those with less. But, saying that someone doesn't have the "instinct" for it is just wrong. We all have the instinct to stay alive, to avoid further injury. A little teaching can go a long way to awakening that self preservation spirit in all of us.
If you carry a gun for protection and have not sought some kind of professional training, you're missing a lot. So, that's why I asked the question, what would you be willing to pay? What is a number, time frame, that would change your mind and make you say, "Hmmm, maybe I should check this out."
I know some who will not think twice about dropping $150 on a dinner at a nice restaurant, but wouldn't consider $100 for a two day class on how to save their life. I find that incredible.
OP
Rastoff
US Veteran
Oh yeah, one more thing...
fastbolt, I like teaching the more experienced students, but I love to work with the new ones. To see the light come on in their eyes makes it all worthwhile.
fastbolt, I like teaching the more experienced students, but I love to work with the new ones. To see the light come on in their eyes makes it all worthwhile.
SgtLumpy
Member
Apparently you're looking for one particular answer. My reply, first reply to your question, stated 2x 4 hrs. And I see at least one other reply that answered the same half of your question.
What's YOUR take on the thing? You're the experienced instructor. What kind of "self defense" training can you get across to a group (how many?) in 8 hrs? How would YOU recommend splitting it up 1x 8hr or 2x 4 hr or something else?
Sgt Lumpy
coltle6920
Member
Would like to get my CCW but I doubt that I could sit through an 8hr class.Every one I looked at said to bring food and drinks because there would be no breaks.It might be my loss but you couldn't pay me to sit that long no matter what the subject was.Got a bad leg and have to be able to move around.I also have the attention span of a gnat.
Look!...A squirrel!
Look!...A squirrel!
My preference as a consumer/student (or instructor for that matter) would be 4- 2 hour classes. In my experience, after 2 hours time begins to get wasted on bathroom breaks, coffee, "war stories", etc. It's not that I have anything against those things- I just want the most "bang for the buck" I'm paying for the class hours. I think instructors generally are most dynamic in their instruction in the first couple hours of teaching.
In terms of amount I'd pay- I don't really know, I was paid to be trained. I haven't ever looked into the price of professional instruction. I would suspect that any training worth paying for would not be cheap. I also suspect that those who have had instruction/training recognize the need for it more than those who haven't had any.
In terms of amount I'd pay- I don't really know, I was paid to be trained. I haven't ever looked into the price of professional instruction. I would suspect that any training worth paying for would not be cheap. I also suspect that those who have had instruction/training recognize the need for it more than those who haven't had any.
Hey, I can certainly appreciate that feeling, and it's great you're enthused about helping start off new shooters on the right foot and encouraging them.
I still pick new shooters every now and again to work with, but I've come to really enjoy the challenges and satisfaction of taking more experienced folks farther along their learning path.
Over the years I found another type of satisfaction in taking intermediate and advanced shooters and helping them discover (and sometimes re-discover) something they lost track of along the way to their above average skillsets.
Seeing the "light come on" with those levels of shooters is every bit as satisfying (sometimes even more so), as they are often better able to take that new revelation (subtle refinement, new perspective, etc) and immediately apply it to everything else they've been doing.
Kind of like helping an intermediate ranked martial arts practitioner (such as a 1st or 2nd degree black belt in some ranked systems) suddenly learn something that allows them to realize a previously hidden gem of meaning in something they've been doing adequately up until that moment, and then being able to let it open them to a new level of understanding of more advanced techniques, as well as finding new meaning in "old knowledge".
Good fortune in your endeavor.
Last edited:
OP
Rastoff
US Veteran
Yes, I was looking for a particular answer. That's why I asked about one 8 hour class or 2 four hour classes. If you'll look back at your first reply, you'll see that you said 8 one hour classes or 4 two hour classes. Neither of those were part of the question.
I already know what I think. Since I'm asking for opinions, it won't help if I offer mine. I'm looking for insight on what others think is valuable. All the responses so far are valuable to me so, don't think I'm discounting what you've said.
I will address what I think, but later. I'm most interested in hearing what people have to say first and I don't want to influence their responses.
I certainly agree with what you've said. A well rounded school will have instructors that fit both levels; some that work well with new students and some that excel at bringing out the next level in more advanced students.
At this level in my own path, I'm not as good at extracting that extra inch from the experienced practitioners. It's not that I can't, I'm just not as good at it as others.
Adk.IBO
Member
If something was offered in my area for home defense and/or ccw personal defense I believe with a month or 2 prior notice I would plan on attending with costs up to $200 for 2) 4 hour classes. $25 per hour for a well qualified instructor out of my pocket would be money well spent. Heck, in the summertime I don't need much of an excuse for a motorcycle ride, just let me know when and where and I'll see if it works for me!
John
John
SgtLumpy
Member
You're right, sorry. I did type 4x 2hr.
In any case, the aprehension I have, and I suspect others have, is that the class is titled "Self Defense". That's not something that anybody learns in 8 hrs, no matter how it's structured.
Call it something like "Intro to CCW" or "Basic CCW" and it seems more palatable. To think that I'd learn how to defend myself in 8 hrs doesn't seem reasonable. But to think that I'd learn the basics of what to do with my new gun and permit does seem reasonable.
Add to the reluctance the "group class" concept. I'm not willing to pay much, if anything, to attend a class with a group of brand new shooters. Not because I don't think I could learn something, but because I think there's nearly always going to be a lot of wasted time spent in "Is it OK to shoot someone if...[blah blah]" and other war stories.
I coach shooters and athletes (and musicians and speakers). None are in a group setting. None are short term. All are relatively expensive. There's no war stories. Nobody gets a diploma or certificate. They just get really good at their skill sets. We sometimes have 4 hour sessions but that includes travel time, breaking up didactic with "pushups", "ask me questions" (both directions), "tell me what makes perfect sense/what confuses you about XYZ".
Sgt Lumpy
Maze 686
US Veteran
Most people have short attention spans. I've been an instructor of martial arts for thirty years and was a firearms instructor for the state and taught inservice as well as academy level students. Children have about a 20 minute attention span, teens and young adults are good for 45 minutes without a break. Most lesson plans are short in duration becuase of this, otherwise you lose the student to distraction and soreness.
I would always use visual demonstration, lecture, and physical application before we went to live fire. This way problems could be hashed out before hand, like injuries that we needed to be aware of. I would rather have the blood flowing before we went hot too.
OP
Rastoff
US Veteran
First let me say that I appreciate your input. So, thanks for that. However, I don't think I implied that anyone would become an expert in 8 hours. The idea is that some training is better than no training which is what most people have; nothing.
Again, this is a reasonable thought process, but beyond the scope of this thread. There is only limited space for a thread title. That is not the name of my school nor any of my classes.
This is a good response toward the cost, but I would respond with a simple test. Can you, or anyone here, answer these three questions without looking it up:
- Can you explain the 6 fundamentals of handgun marksmanship?
- Can you explain the color code of awareness?
- Can you explain the 5 step draw sequence (presentation)?
If you can't answer these correctly off the top of your head, then I would require any student take the basic course. If you can answer them off the top of your head, I'd allow skipping the basic course.
I understand your concerns with being "stuck" with new shooters. I also understand that your time is valuable. Therefore, I control my classes and don't allow them to head "down the rabbit hole" as it were. I present the material first. I encourage all students to write down questions and hold them for the appropriate time. And, I offer to stay as long as anyone wants to answer any question they come up with. This way, the rest of the class doesn't have to suffer through questions they believe don't pertain to them.
That said, I would still encourage anyone to go through every class they can. Even as an instructor I still learn from every class no matter how basic.
If one-on-one is the only type of teaching you do or are willing to be part of, then I can understand why it would be expensive.
Of course becoming proficient is not a short term process. I didn't get my black belt in a weekend. I don't have the proficiency I've learned with my handgun because of a weekend class. Even so, I have learned much at weekend seminars. It is my goal to first reach out to the uninitiated. Then, hopefully, to take them to a higher level with further, ongoing, instruction, practice and drills. Still, you have to start somewhere.
OP
Rastoff
US Veteran
John you are welcome to come to a class, but I think it would be a long commute for you.
Even though I know several instructors that charge as much as $500 for two days of instruction, I'm trying to keep it less than $150.Thank you for the comments. This has bee brought up a couple of times so, I need to address it.
Most adults should be able to keep focused for 50 minutes. In my classes I never run longer than 50 minutes at one time. Going beyond that is counter productive in my opinion. So, an 8 hour class would be broken up into 50 minute chunks with an hour lunch break.
Further, if I can't keep your attention for 50 minutes then I'm not doing my job as an instructor.
