Interesting questin: How many rounds?

As a private citizen with no duty to respond (IMO) I should never be in an offensive position. I didn't get a CHP so I could "take down perps" according to the letter that came with the card my CHP is for the defense of myself and family when all other measures have failed.

You are in a crowded restaurant.You are either alone or with friends/family and a armed robber enters the building.You are carrying concealed but feel no duty to respond because you are not being personally threatened.I'm not suggesting that you should go full "Rambo" in this situation.Assuming there was no exit to escape to and people were getting robbed or worse would you still wait until you were directly threatened?

There is no intent on my part to insult or offend you.I'm just trying to clarify my statement and understand your reply.
 
Since the scenarios can vary so much it is sometimes it is hard to "plan."

Just a trip to town : J frame and speed strip.
Out of my area larger : J frame and K 66 in 2 1/2 inch plus one speed strip. K has magnums in the cylinder.
I like the instant option of 357 or 38 depending on the problem at hand.
The pair is in a double shoulder rig. Bicanchi 9R " Mc Queen Bullet style"
Another option which I like is to be able to arm a friend if need be.
My wife will have her 642 and 2 speed loaders handy also.

Back when 9/11 happened I was 5 hours from home with a J and one speed loader. Not knowing what was going on was NOT a good feeling.
So on long trips things change now. The 686 plus or 1911 may come out. Maybe even a riot gun in the trunk.
So in other words , you never know until it happens.



As for the restaurant mentioned , you will never know until the SHTF.
When smoke and a boom happen all planning is out the window. Reflex may be all you have. Please think before you act. If there is time and you can.
 
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You are in a crowded restaurant.You are either alone or with friends/family and a armed robber enters the building.
We could really go "down the rabbit hole" with what if scenarios. So, before I respond, do you know what the 4 (sometimes 5) levels of awareness are? If so, please tell us what they are.
 
You are in a crowded restaurant.You are either alone or with friends/family and a armed robber enters the building.You are carrying concealed but feel no duty to respond because you are not being personally threatened.I'm not suggesting that you should go full "Rambo" in this situation.Assuming there was no exit to escape to and people were getting robbed or worse would you still wait until you were directly threatened?

There is no intent on my part to insult or offend you.I'm just trying to clarify my statement and understand your reply.

Statistically, the most likely outcome of an armed robbery is that the robber is in and out in less than 2 minutes, no shots are fired and no one is injured.

Based on that I think that starting a gun fight in a crowded restaurant would be far more dangerous to everyone concerned than letting the robber take the money and run.

So, unless I saw behaviors that indicated that the robber was planning to open fire (such as herding patrons and staff into a back room) I would not engage the robber, I would let him take the money and run and be good witness
 
We could really go "down the rabbit hole" with what if scenarios. So, before I respond, do you know what the 4 (sometimes 5) levels of awareness are? If so, please tell us what they are.

First off,don't take this the wrong way...

I only have a year of shooting under my belt and have never taken a training class of any kind.I only add my two cents because that's what I do.My entire life has involved asking "what if" questions to others.I guess if I searched long enough I could get answers to the legal ramifications of being a gun owner and when or where you should attempt to use it.It does seem like the end results of ones actions would hinge on the particular situation and the attitude of responding law enforcement.

Please enlighten me on the levels of awareness but don't talk down to me.I'm a mature adult and not some trigger happy irresponsible gun owner.
 
To the OP, this isn't off topic, but it may seem that way. Bear with me and you'll see how it fits.

coltle6920,
I wasn't talking down to you, just trying to ascertain your level of knowledge before I went into a discussion that might be meaningless by using terminology that you'd be unfamiliar with. Sorry, I didn't mean to come off that way.

Jeff Cooper used colors, but the NRA uses verbiage. I will use both:

Unaware(white):
This is where most people in the US live. They are walking around without a care and not paying attention to the world around them. Another term would be, asleep.

Aware(yellow):
This is how we want to be. An aware person is constantly surveying his surroundings. Not nervously, but just noticing things and people. Less likely to have someone sneak up on you.

Alert(orange):
You have noticed a potential threat. You don't know that it is a threat yet, but it could turn into one at any moment. It's the middle of July in Phoenix and a guy just walked in wearing a floor length trench coat. Hmmm, could be an issue. It's at this point you start to formulate/finalize an action plan. If he does this, I'm doing that. Look for exits, cover. Know what you'll do with your family or friends.

Alarm(red):
The guy in the trench coat pulls out a shotgun. Now you have to do something. Put your plan into action. Exit if you can, get behind cover if you can't. Your plan should have included Thresholds, limits on when you'll do what. For example: you see some suspicious characters on the opposite side of the street. If they cross to your side(threshold), you cross to the other. Notice that the action plan didn't necessarily include force. However, you need another threshold. What if they cross back? What if you can't cross? You need to have set some level to let you know when to use force, only if necessary.



Back to the restaurant scenario:
"You are in a crowded restaurant.You are either alone or with friends/family and a armed robber enters the building."
You are in condition Alert(yellow) when he walks in because you've noticed him. Most would not. So, upon noticing the Bad Guy(BG), you ratchet to condition Alarm(orange). You formulate a plan. Can you, and your family/friends, get away? If so, how? Where are the exits? You made note of them on the way in, right? Leaving is the best plan if possible.

As you're in Alert(orange) you need to stay in Aware(yellow). What? How can I do that? The idea is to stay alert for other threats. Did the BG have an accomplice that you didn't notice at first? Don't become so focused on the potential threat that you miss the real threat. What if the guy with the trench coat is just a weirdo and not really a threat? Did you miss the guy with the gun while you were focused on the trench coat?

In this scenario though, the trench coat really is a bad guy and pulls his gun. Ratchet to condition Alarm(red). Now you have to do something. Getting behind cover is a good idea, leaving is better. Your first thoughts have to be toward yourself and family. If they are safe, then consider others. The BG points his gun at the teller. Do you shoot him? CAN you shoot him? Remember, this is a crowded restaurant. What about the people around you? If you shoot, will you hit them? What if your round goes through him? Who's on the other side? Does he have a partner? If he does, do you have enough ammo to engage two (told you it would get around to number of rounds)? Do you have the training to handle two assailants? Most don't.


"What if" scenarios are how we learn. They help us develop preliminary plans so we don't have to start from scratch when we need to use a plan for real. They are great learning tools. But, they are never cut and dry. They are never simple. There is never one answer. This is why we train. This is why we practice what we train. If you carry a gun for self defense and have not sought training, start looking. The training is every bit as important, probably more so, as the gun.

"Owning a gun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician." -Col Jeff Cooper

The levels of awareness dictate how we react. They are important to know because we live them even when we don't know what they are. They are the way to formulate the plan we will use in any scenario. So, how would you react in the scenario you posed?
 
Something to perhaps bear in mind is that an effective use of "hypothetical situations" is often to test & assess an individual's knowledge and understanding of a subject (both pre-existing, and after being taught something), and their problem-solving abilities. They can also be used to see how someone may be able to apply existing knowledge and experience to the solving of new situations, or variations of situations.

Getting mired down in "hypotheticals" can distract from the learning process. Someone needs to acquire and develop the knowledge, and then be able to use that knowledge in effective decision-making.

Sometimes, when someone seems to become intent on devising hypothetical situations that are "no-win" situations, especially just to "prove a point", it can degrade the learning process and waste everyone's time.

The world is a dynamic, fluid and sometimes chaotic place, and more often than not what happens in it, and what we may encounter, may not be any particular person's desired "snapshot" of an anticipated set of circumstances.
 
carry what ever makes u feel safe and secure

That's about it.

For most every law-abiding citizen who carries a gun, the only purpose it will ever serve during their entire lifetime is peace of mind. So if peace of mind requires carrying a Glock17 with three extra mags and a backup gun... then so be it.
 
I've often pondered this. How much ammo is enough? I, for one do not want to get in a gun fight, let alone a battle. I do like to be over gunned and over ammo'd though.
I want enough to stop the fight and get the hell away from there. That depends on circumstances which are always beyond ones control.
So, who knows how much is enough? I believe it's as many as you are comfortable carrying.
 
I don't obsess over the number of rounds in a particular gun ( as long as at least 5) . Of course anytime I'm carrying a 5 shot gun , I also have a real gun. At least one reload for each. If one of them is a .38/ .357 , two speed strips carry easily ( and low profile ) in a pager case.

Within that framework , I'm comfortable with six shot revolvers and single stack autos.

You can make statistics say anything you want , but since I knew at least two people who ran out of ammo in the midst of a gunfight , and another who reloaded twice ( with HKS speedloaders ) , I am inclined to always have spare ammo.
 
I am sorry for the loss of your two (2) friends. Please post additional details so we may learn from their experience(s.)

Be safe.


I don't obsess over the number of rounds in a particular gun ( as long as at least 5) . Of course anytime I'm carrying a 5 shot gun , I also have a real gun. At least one reload for each. If one of them is a .38/ .357 , two speed strips carry easily ( and low profile ) in a pager case.

Within that framework , I'm comfortable with six shot revolvers and single stack autos.

You can make statistics say anything you want , but since I knew at least two people who ran out of ammo in the midst of a gunfight , and another who reloaded twice ( with HKS speedloaders ) , I am inclined to always have spare ammo.
 
I'm 65 and I've never needed to even pull.
I don't frequent dangerous places usually.
I've felt threatened in 3 places- Baltimore, Paris and Niagra, NY.
I could not carry in either of those places anyway.
I carry a J frame (sometimes I take a speed loader) or a semi. Depends on where I am.
Yiogo
 
I started out thinking my 15 to 17 round mags were a good idea. But over the years, I realized I never carried. In my line of work, carrying concealed truly means concealed. And a double stack just wasn't working for me. So it stayed home. I wish I was in a situation where I could normally carry a full sized double stack gun with extra mags, but that just wasn't my personal reality. A pocket gun was also not a great idea for me. Having only a few rounds and only being effective at 10 feet or less didn't appeal to me. I can see how it would make some feel OK, but just didn't do it for me. My pocket gun just sat as well.

So now I have my 3914. It has decent range. Single stack 8+1. Small enough to CC daily. Range, power, and enough rounds to make me feel confident in it. I then have a few mags stashed in key places. But can't carry extra on me.

Bottom line in my opinion is this - carrying what is practical and works for your situation is MUCH better than not carrying at all. Just practice with what you have and understand your limitations. Train as best you can, and pray you never have to apply it.
 
Gents, I think we need to break this down a bit more and be more realistic.

Each of us has to determine what we think is enough. Some of us are older. Some much older. Despite having a high level of situational awareness, sometimes even the best of us can be snuck up on. It happens. Some of us can't see as well at distance or up close. Our reflexes have slowed and our depth perception is off.

There was a recent study (I'm looking for it) that showed that SOME self defense shootings require more than 5 or 6 rounds. Much more.

And since I'm older, I want more than 5 rounds to fend off multiple attackers. Older people are being attacked now more than ever and by multiple attackers.

If it inconveniences me to carry more rounds to be BETTER PREPARED then so be it. I'm too old to run. Too old to fight back for any extended period of time and too old to take a pounding.

More rounds allow to me to fight and keep up the fight vigorously and hopefully end it before I get hurt or worse.

That being said, if you live in BFE and your nearest neighbor is miles away, then you're probably fine.

It is my duty as a husband and father to return alive and unharmed. More ammo isn't a guarantee but it's more of a guarantee than 5 rounds ever will be.

Did I mention that I sometimes carry two guns?:p
 
To the OP, this isn't off topic, but it may seem that way. Bear with me and you'll see how it fits.

coltle6920,
I wasn't talking down to you, just trying to ascertain your level of knowledge before I went into a discussion that might be meaningless by using terminology that you'd be unfamiliar with. Sorry, I didn't mean to come off that way.

Jeff Cooper used colors, but the NRA uses verbiage. I will use both:

Unaware(white):
This is where most people in the US live. They are walking around without a care and not paying attention to the world around them. Another term would be, asleep.

Aware(yellow):
This is how we want to be. An aware person is constantly surveying his surroundings. Not nervously, but just noticing things and people. Less likely to have someone sneak up on you.

Alert(orange):
You have noticed a potential threat. You don't know that it is a threat yet, but it could turn into one at any moment. It's the middle of July in Phoenix and a guy just walked in wearing a floor length trench coat. Hmmm, could be an issue. It's at this point you start to formulate/finalize an action plan. If he does this, I'm doing that. Look for exits, cover. Know what you'll do with your family or friends.

Alarm(red):
The guy in the trench coat pulls out a shotgun. Now you have to do something. Put your plan into action. Exit if you can, get behind cover if you can't. Your plan should have included Thresholds, limits on when you'll do what. For example: you see some suspicious characters on the opposite side of the street. If they cross to your side(threshold), you cross to the other. Notice that the action plan didn't necessarily include force. However, you need another threshold. What if they cross back? What if you can't cross? You need to have set some level to let you know when to use force, only if necessary.



Back to the restaurant scenario:
"You are in a crowded restaurant.You are either alone or with friends/family and a armed robber enters the building."
You are in condition Alert(yellow) when he walks in because you've noticed him. Most would not. So, upon noticing the Bad Guy(BG), you ratchet to condition Alarm(orange). You formulate a plan. Can you, and your family/friends, get away? If so, how? Where are the exits? You made note of them on the way in, right? Leaving is the best plan if possible.

As you're in Alert(orange) you need to stay in Aware(yellow). What? How can I do that? The idea is to stay alert for other threats. Did the BG have an accomplice that you didn't notice at first? Don't become so focused on the potential threat that you miss the real threat. What if the guy with the trench coat is just a weirdo and not really a threat? Did you miss the guy with the gun while you were focused on the trench coat?

In this scenario though, the trench coat really is a bad guy and pulls his gun. Ratchet to condition Alarm(red). Now you have to do something. Getting behind cover is a good idea, leaving is better. Your first thoughts have to be toward yourself and family. If they are safe, then consider others. The BG points his gun at the teller. Do you shoot him? CAN you shoot him? Remember, this is a crowded restaurant. What about the people around you? If you shoot, will you hit them? What if your round goes through him? Who's on the other side? Does he have a partner? If he does, do you have enough ammo to engage two (told you it would get around to number of rounds)? Do you have the training to handle two assailants? Most don't.


"What if" scenarios are how we learn. They help us develop preliminary plans so we don't have to start from scratch when we need to use a plan for real. They are great learning tools. But, they are never cut and dry. They are never simple. There is never one answer. This is why we train. This is why we practice what we train. If you carry a gun for self defense and have not sought training, start looking. The training is every bit as important, probably more so, as the gun.

"Owning a gun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician." -Col Jeff Cooper

The levels of awareness dictate how we react. They are important to know because we live them even when we don't know what they are. They are the way to formulate the plan we will use in any scenario. So, how would you react in the scenario you posed?

I appreciate your response and while reading it I probably dug the "rabbit hole" even deeper.No sense in trying to go further.

Time to go and "What if" someone else to death.
 
Actually those two both survived. One of them was behind cover , bluffed as well as he could , and threw out ( valuable thing ) which the attacker/ robber ( meaning they were after the booty , but opened fire first without making demands first ) then took and went on his way.

The second was pinned down with pitifull excuse for cover , and was in process of being outflanked by two attacker/robbers. His partner ( my good friend ) then opened fire on the BG's before they completed the flanking. He carefully lined the sights , and did smooth trigger pull "just like it was a deer" in his words. The plate glass window behind the BG wasn't struck , impling my friend connected , but the BG ran away under own power , so I'd suspect either was wearing kevlar , or using really good drugs , or both.

The third situation , the ammo question was ambigous. The first my friend knew was when he was when he was mortally wounded . But he was determined to take his attacker with him. Chased after him , and emptied his gun as the BG was getting into getaway car. About the time the gun ran dry , he collasped, loosing concousness. BG was shortly captured and convicted.
 

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