At what distance should I reasonably expect POA to meet POI on a 642? (canted barrel)

[sKarp]

Hello all,

I'm new to the forum and this is my first post. I apologize up front if I am posting this in the wrong place, using the wrong terminology, or make some other etiquette blunder. Please forgive me! I'm new, but eager to learn and be part of the S&W community.

Back story- the wife and I took our NRA safety course here in Michigan and applied for our CPLs last December. After which I went to the least aggravating LGS and picked up the last two 642 no-locks they had. Both were new and test fired in January 2010. I thought it was odd they had sat in inventory for 3 years, but the shop is actually a LE distributor and I suspect they just sell a lot more autos. Anyhow, I've always been a fan of the minimalist look of the snub, its simplicity and the wife isn't a "gun" person so I was looking for the least objectionable and complicated option for both of us.

So, I've got a gift for finding flaws. (More of a curse, actually.) I eyed the two 642s over and they were mostly clean- no scratches on the aluminum frames, though I did find a machining mark here and there on the cranes or barrels. I could swear the sights seemed off. But I just ignored it because it didn't occur to me that a gun would have a crooked barrel. It just didn't cross my mind.

Then I came here to this forum and became aware, under a torrent of various posts, about this canted barrel issue. So I went back and really looked at my two 642s. Well, sure enough, one of them seems to be clocked just a bit- the barrel sight is not quite at 12 o'clock, but other than that, seems ok. The second one actually has a slightly offset barrel and is bent back towards "true."

So my questions are a these:

1. What exactly is a canted barrel? Does canted mean over-rotated so the front sight is not at 12 o'clock? Or is canted mean a crooked or offset in the frame barrel? Because I have one of each of those in my first two S&W purchases.

2. I have a couple boxes of .38 spc and plan to go to the range this weekend to try them out. At what distance should I expect to notice any disparity between POA and POI to know whether these barrel issues are just cosmetic and don't really matter? I'm a new handgun shooter, but the long and heavy trigger pull seems fine to me and I'm not overly worried about aiming or control issues with slow fires. The first stop on the range is 12 yards.

All of this is to say, I am a bit bummed out my first handgun buying experience has me in this scenario, but I have been enamored with the look and feel of the 642 for so long that my faith in S&W is not completely shaken. I look forward to more purchases in the future and I am still a fan. The S&W name still sounds like legend, even to this 40 year old "kid" that grew up watching the same movies you all did.

Thanks for any help!

 

[158Grain]

Welcome to the forum. Lots and lots of good info here. I also have a 642 and love it. J frames takes lots of practice to shoot well and accurate, even while not under stress. In regards to your questions, the canted barrels are where the barrel is over tightened onto the frame. This will result in the front sight being in the 11-12 o clock position. I'm not quite sure what you mean by offset in the frame barrel. My 686 had to go back for a canted barrel. There are limits as to how much they can "loosen" the barrel before the gap between cylinder and barrel becomes too large. The barrel can usually be backed off and make the barrel appear straight. Since the 642 doesn't have a rear sight and it has such a short barrel, it shouldn't be very noticeable even if the alignment isn't perfect. A canted barrel can affect the accuracy, but it will be more noticeable with a longer barrel gun. Keep in mind a 642 is not a target gun. Think 7-10 yards max as a defensive revolver. As you get more experience you will be able to reach out farther and farther. In my experience with a 642, don't look for 2" groups at 12 yards. Look for a good center mass group at 7 yards first. Keep practicing, then move out the target. If the canted barrels bother you, you can always send them back to S&W for a redo. It will be free to you, but expect your guns to be gone for about 2 weeks. One other area to look at is in the yoke under the barrel. There have been some examples, one posted here recently, of cracked frames from over torqueing the barrel. Best of luck and keep us posted what the outcome is.

 

[photoman]

First off, welcome to the Forum!

Second, stop thinking so much!

Seriously, just take the guns to the range and shoot them. Chances are they will be fantastic guns as is. But do have realistic expectations. At 12 yards, and being a beginning handgun shooter, you're not going to see nice, tight target groups. It really would be best if you could find a range where distances are closer, five yards or so. Also, I would encourage you to use silhouette targets and not bullseye targets when practicing with your Centennial.

 

[smithfelty]

Call S&W and explain the situation. Having them exam the guns will at least give you peace of mind. I have never heard of S&W not making something right if the gun is defective.

 

[sKarp]

Thanks guys for the welcome and the advice! I'm sorry for the Year Plus a Day update, but life got in the way (it always seems to!) Anyhow, I took both my 642s out to the range a couple times each over the summer and fall, practicing with 158 grain factory target loads at various close distances. After putting about 100 rounds through each, it became apparent that one of them was fine, but the other was shooting to the right of point of aim, by a pretty varying amount. The snub with the slightly canted sight was the straight-shooter, the one where the barrel looked offset in the frame and bent back was the trouble piece. So I sat on that for about five months and then I called S&W a couple weeks ago and they arranged a return. After a week, the fella called and said it was defective, and mentioned something about an alignment tracking issue with that series? Both of these 642s were test fired in January 2010. I can't remember exactly what it was he said, he called my cell and I was driving home from work and half paying attention. Nonetheless, he said they were shipping me a new snub. It hasn't arrived at the dealer yet, but I'll give a report on how it looks when I get it home, if anyone is interested. Thanks!

 

[Cal44]

I had the canted barrel problem on a model 60 I bought new last year.

S&W paid shipping, fixed the problem, and returned the gun within a month.

POI relative to POA depends on the type of ammo. Heavy bullets hit higher than light bullets.

 

[2ndAmendmentNut]

It is going to be really hard to tell being someone new to shooting a j frame. No offense, but a double action only j frame has got to be the hardest gun to shoot accurately. I would be more concerned if the my groups patterned way left or way right seeing as this could be proof of a canted barrel.

 

[GreyRider]

Similar to the OP, I bought my first gun a year ago. Much research, opted for a 686. Nothing local so I stalked GB.com for a few months and found what I wanted. Didn't know what a canted barrel was until I joined the forum. Checked my rig and sure enough. SW told me to return it and they would inspect but they also told me they were back logged big time and I'd be better off waiting - and shooting the gun rather than have it sit on a shelf at SW. Bottom line, once I sighted in - and it did sight in without the rear sight being way left - I can shoot 1.5" groups at 7.5 yards. And I probably won't kick it back to SW. So +1 to what Photoman said.

 

[MichiganScott]

Note to OP and his wife: if you are carrying those pistols for self defense you really might want to consider putting more than 100 rds. each downrange over the course of a year.

Other than that, congratulations and welcome aboard.

 

[Macinaw]

I agree 100 percent with MichiganScott.

I would like to add that in a defensive confrontation it will be close up and you will be "point shooting". Sights will not matter.

Most competition shooter that I shoot with hardly ever use their sights. Mainly point shoot. (Cowboy Action and Steel Challenge)

 

[Edmo]

It would drive me crazy to have a canted barrel. Some don't care, but being a perfectionist it would just drive me nuts!

Just saying.

Edmo

 

[scooter123]

Hello all,
I'm a new handgun shooter, but the long and heavy trigger pull seems fine to me and I'm not overly worried about aiming or control issues with slow fires. The first stop on the range is 12 yards.

You've got a lot of learning to do about shooting handguns, it isn't nearly as easy as you think.

1) It takes a small bit of time for the bullet to travel through the barrel and how you react in that small slice of time can effect where the bullet goes. A small bit of good news concerning Recoil Management is that the slice of time involved with a 1 7/8 inch barrel on your 642 requires a rather HUGE movement to cause the shots to be "thrown". However if you ever pick up a revolver with a 6 or 8 3/8 inch barrel Recoil Management, or the lack thereof, will become observable.

2) ANY movement during the trigger press will tend to pull your sights off target, even in slow careful fire. In general a new Right Handed shooter will pull the sights to the Left and a new Left Handed shooter will pull the sights to the right. As a result Right Handed shooters typically pull their shots Left. Based on experience with new shooters you can expect to pull your shots in the range of 8 to 15 inches off target at 12 yards.

3) Light weight firearms like your 642 typically cause flinching issues and it doesn't matter how much experience you have shooting. Be it a week or 40 years, shoot a revolver as small and light as the 642 and you WILL have to deal with a tendency to flinch when shooting it. The most typical flinch is what I call a "push flinch" and it is just what it sounds like. It's a flinch in anticipation of the shot that pushes the barrel in a downwards motion. For some shooters this motion can be so violent that they can actually put their shots into the ground 5 feet in front of them.

What all this means is that it would be a miracle if you were actually able to evaluate your potential sighting defects as a new shooter. You are about 2 months of twice weekly shooting with a medium weight handgun before you'll have the skills to do this. BTW, trying to shoot twice weekly with your 642 will cause enough of a flinch that you'll probably start putting shots in the dirt in front of you, light weight pocket revolvers are horrible training/range guns. I would suggest that you purchase a 3 or 4 inch 686 as a House Gun and both you and your wife use the 686 at the range for training. Once you stop shooting low and towards your "weak" side shoulder you can then do some limited (15 rounds or so) practice with the 642. Note the low recommended round count with the 642, I am not kidding about them causing flinching issues and the only sure way to mitigate this is to limit the number of rounds fired at each range session.

BTW, one tip that you can do with your 642 that will help with your shooting is dry fire practice. This is practicing sighting and pulling the trigger on an UNLOADED revolver or a revolver loaded with inert dummy rounds called Snap Caps. BTW, I recommend using Azoom Snap Caps for dry firing because they act to protect the firing mechanism by providing a urethane "cushion" for the firing pin. As to the practice, sight the revolver on something handy like the screw holding in a trim plate for a light switch and pull the trigger. What you want to see is the sights stay rock steady on your target during the trigger stroke. What you will see is that you have a ways to go before achieving that goal.

As for your potential sighting issues, I wouldn't worry about this. These are Up Close and Personal Protection Revolvers and it's highly unlikely that you'll ever use the sights if you are in an actual self defense shooting. At typical self defense ranges of 30 feet and less it's a near certainty that both of your revolvers with shoot within 3 inches of the point of aim and highly likely they'll shoot within 2 inches.

 

[jimmyj]

POA/POI: 0 to 21 feet

 

[jtcarm]

Too many variables to say on a FS site gun, factory regulating, ammo.
I'm not sure what canting is, either, but by either definition, it POI will be opposite the direction the FS is off.

I believe screwing the barrel one way or the other is a method of regulating sites.

 

[David R]

I agree, a couple hundred rounds each for a tool you plan to depend your life on if needed is not much.

For your original question, I don't think you will notice the difference out to 7 yards and chances of needing it at longer distances hopefully are slim.

For your own comfort, burn up some ammo getting to know the revolver better.

For the flinch thing, have some one load the revolver for you including one fired round with 4 live ones. Shoot the gun. When you get to the "misfire" you will see the flinch plain as day.

If the sight being off makes you loose confidence in the gun, get it fixed. S&W should do the repair for free.

Invest time in learning to use this tool.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Perhaps if you posted pictures of the sights on the two revolvers, we could give you further advice.

 

[sKarp]

Thanks all for the advice and taking the time to answer my post. I agree- I've got a lot to learn and a lot of practice ahead of me. I appreciate the guidance. I have to work on trigger control, dry-fires, and put a lot more rounds down range - both with the snub and a larger revolver to develop my skills.

As I mentioned in my second post, the snub that I thought was patterning off-center to the right was the one I sent back to S&W. They called a week later, said it was defective and are going to send a replacement. I agree I don't have a lot of experience, but a crooked barrel is crooked and it was not hitting POA, ever. You'd think after 100 rounds, even if I completely suck, at least one of them would have been on target. The fact I was at getting on target often with the other piece is why I sent the "bad" one in. If S&W thought it was defective to the extent they are going to replace it, I guess I wasn't too far off.

Anyways, truly, thanks for all the advice. It's good to be part of a forum where people actually want to help you and not just call you stupid.

 

[sac-gunslinger]

Have had a 642 for several years. Barrel properly aligned, shoots great. It is the snubby I practice with because of its low weight (and is my EDC).

About 15 months ago I bought a 640, put it to work in one of my safes right away. Last week I thought "I ought to check that barrel!" Well, sho'nuf, canted 15 degrees to the right (when viewed from front). Waiting for shipping label from Smith. This is, however, the only J-frame that has ever given me a problem in 40 years of buying J-frames. So don't despair, but practice more!

I kinda wish they will have to send me another 642. ;=}

 

[vipermd]

GreyRider: Is your 686 a 4 or 6"? Are you shooting it (SA) single action off a rest? 1.5 @ 7 yds would be nice with a J frame, you will find that you should get around 1" group @ 25 yd with practice. Where are there any ranges up in Bergen? Be Safe,

 

[jaymoore]

...About 15 months ago I bought a 640, put it to work in one of my safes right away. Last week I thought "I ought to check that barrel!" Well, sho'nuf, canted 15 degrees to the right ...

15 Degrees!!!!

Gotta have a photo of that one. That much overturn should just about rupture the frame. And ring the barrel. The front lock probably doesn't engage at all.