I have to ask this question (answering your door armed)

[Smoke]

Colorado Statue Felony Menacing 18-3-206

According to Colorado law:
"A person commits the crime of menacing if, by any threat or physical action, he knowingly places or attempts to place another person in fear of imminent serious bodily injury." Menacing is a class 3 misdemeanor, but it is a class 5 felony if committed:

• With the use of a deadly weapon or any article used or fashioned in a manner that causes a person to believe that the article is a deadly weapon
• By a person who either brandishes or verbally states that he or she is armed with a deadly weapon

One essential element of both types of menacing charges is the specific intent to cause fear in a victim. You do not need to actually harm the victim to be charged with menacing. Also, it is not necessary for a victim to be aware of a threat or experience fear to be charged.

Denver Menacing Lawyer - The Mitchell Law Firm | The Mitchell Law Firm

With all due respect I don't think some of you have a clue what you are talking about WRT to the Colorado Statute.

In Colorado if you use a weapon with the intent to threaten or intimidate someone (They don't even have to know you did it) you are guilty of felony menacing.

In fact (and there is Colorado case law to support this) you don't even have to have a real gun on you to be guilty of the charge. All you have to do is imply that you have a weapon with the intent to intimidate or threaten and you're guilty, doesn't matter if you're in your home or not.

So yeah, salesman at the front door who isn't threatening you but won't go away and you "let your 9 do the talking", unless you can prove that you would have been justified using deadly force, you have just committed felony menacing.

 

[rwsmith]

I don't know about this....

Girl scouts carrying cookies are not bad guys. Life is not black and white.


The way things are now thugs disguised as Girl Scouts don't sound to farfetched.

 

[WC145]

Again, I'm not talking about being armed on your property or in your home. I'm talking about going to the door with the gun in your hand .

I do it all the time. I live in the country and don't get many visitors. If I get to the door and find that it is someone I know I just slip it into my back pocket. No harm, no foul.

 

[WC145]

So yeah, salesman at the front door who isn't threatening you but won't go away and you "let your 9 do the talking", unless you can prove that you would have been justified using deadly force, you have just committed felony menacing.

If you are on my property and refusing to leave when I tell you to, you are trespassing, salesman or not. And because you are refusing to leave my property after having been told to do so, I'm questioning your true intentions. You are now a threat and will be dealt with accordingly and then I'm calling the cops.

 

[Smoke]

If you are on my property and refusing to leave when I tell you to, you are trespassing, salesman or not. And because you are refusing to leave my property after having been told to do so, I'm questioning your true intentions. You are now a threat and will be dealt with accordingly and then I'm calling the cops.

How much of a threat is he when you are locked in the house and he's locked out of it and making no attempt to get into it?

I've never had a saleman refuse to leave after I said I was calling the cops

 

[TexasArmed]

If you are on my property and refusing to leave when I tell you to, you are trespassing, salesman or not. And because you are refusing to leave my property after having been told to do so, I'm questioning your true intentions. You are now a threat and will be dealt with accordingly and then I'm calling the cops.

You guys can argue about Colorado laws, glad I live in Texas and don't have to worry about that. Here is just one link regarding the danger of traveling salesmen who come knocking
on your door. Door To Door Sales 2010

I saw another too relating to all sorts of crimes committed by some traveling magazine salesmen. While I do not live in Colorado my understanding is that their castle doctrine does not extend beyond your home door. In this day and age, there are scammers out there selling things, and may even use the knock on your front door for a distraction. Seems to
me unless you called someone out, your best course of action
is to ignore the knocking and do nothing till the guy tries to
break in. Based on the other postings here, I don't believe I
would even warn a person trying to beat the door down, that
I was armed. I see no legal obligation or otherwise to inform
him of that fact.

 

[WC145]

How much of a threat is he when you are locked in the house and he's locked out of it and making no attempt to get into it?

I've never had a saleman refuse to leave after I said I was calling the cops

Regardless of your take on the scenario, he is as much of a threat as RevTracy can articulate. No where does it say that he has to tolerate someone trespassing on his property and refusing to leave when ordered to do so. By not leaving, he is escalating the situation and forcing RevTracy's hand. He is now in a position where he feels threatened and is defending himself, his family, and his property.

My point is that your black and white position on "felony menacing" or "brandishing" or whatever the law calls it where you live is not so black and white. There are no laws against walking to your door with a gun in your hand, you are in your home, you can do what you like. Having it in hand at your side when you answer the door is not brandishing, brandishing is more than a gun being present, it requires intent.

Going from "I'm not interested, get off my property" with your gun behind your back to "I asked you to leave, you are trespassing, I have a gun and I will defend myself" and exposing your gun is not brandishing, it is the second step in a force continuum. You asked him to leave, he refused, your verbal response is more forceful and you expose your weapon and preparing to defend yourself if need be. You don't know him, you've asked him to leave, his intentions are unclear now that he refuses to go, you feel threatened and fear for yourself and your family. It's all about articulation.

 

[Kentucky Dave]

From a brief perusal of case law I wouldn't bet my freedom on it in the situation in question "let my 9mm do the talking" BUT for the record:

From Colorado Jury Instructions:

It is an affirmative defense to the crimes of Attempted Second Degree Murder, First Degree Assault, Second Degree Assault Causing Bodily Injury, Menacing, Attempted Second Degree Assault and Attempted Third Degree Assault that the defendant used physical force upon another person

1. In order to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believed to be the imminent use of unlawful physical force by the victim, and

2. the defendant used the degree of force which he reasonably believed to be necessary for that purpose.

As I said, it obviously doesn't apply in the above case, but I wanted to point out that the Colorado menacing code is not as draconian as it appears. (although from what I saw in a quick look, it pretty much is in reality)

 

[Smoke]

From a brief perusal of case law I wouldn't bet my freedom on it in the situation in question "let my 9mm do the talking" BUT for the record:

From Colorado Jury Instructions:

It is an affirmative defense to the crimes of Attempted Second Degree Murder, First Degree Assault, Second Degree Assault Causing Bodily Injury, Menacing, Attempted Second Degree Assault and Attempted Third Degree Assault that the defendant used physical force upon another person

1. In order to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believed to be the imminent use of unlawful physical force by the victim, and

2. the defendant used the degree of force which he reasonably believed to be necessary for that purpose.

As I said, it obviously doesn't apply in the above case, but I wanted to point out that the Colorado menacing code is not as draconian as it appears. (although from what I saw in a quick look, it pretty much is in reality)

What Revtracy did wasn't a whole lot different than what I did in my other thread so I'm in no position to condemn.

The point I'm trying to make though is that you're better off thinking first and avoid the need for it ever to come to jury instructions in the first place.

Here's a bit of Colorado case law you might be interested in

Former deputy accused of threat using a gun

All this guy did was put his hand on his jacket over where his gun was and he was arrested. He was eventually acquitted but only after a year's worth of trials and attorney fees.

I got a chance to speak to the gentleman and he said it cost him several thousand dollars to stay out of jail and he still lost his PI license and his handgun permit.

It's better to avoid the charge entirely than to beat it.

 

[TexasArmed]

"if you wouldn't do it without a gun you shouldn't do it with a gun" So why would you go out your door? Of carry a piece in protection?

As too answering the door with a piece, speakin for myself, I have motion lights but I tend to have a piece on my person whilst at home ALWAYS! Am I paranoid? No just prudent, and don't feel like being food for the wolves. After 8pm the doors are locked and I don't answer them, if someone does enter my yard and knocks on the door, I answer via a darkened window, if they require help I will gladly call the proper folks. If I sense the need to open the door there is a pistol in my pocket or tucked in my pants.

Finally I do believe its up to each and every one of us too decide how we handle said situation, but thanks for the concern.
Dale

I agree with you about not answering the door after 8:00pm.
I just do not answer at all nor make turn on a lights which are
turned off by then. I find this issue fascinating. I think there
is a lot more risk than people realize in answering the door to
anyone you do not know. I found this interesting link.
http://www.travelingsalescrews.info/An Industry Rife With Fraud 082111.htm. This link shows a number
of very bad criminals that have engaged in this traveling salesmen activity, and enough to convince me that I am
following the right action by not opening the door to them
or letting them know I am at home.

I never realized how much danger I might be avoiding by just
not opening the door at all or making a sound unless they try to gain entry by kicking my door in, and then I am on very safe
legal ground in Texas to take them down when the door comes down.

 

[cmort666]

This link shows a number
of very bad criminals that have engaged in this traveling salesmen activity, and enough to convince me that I am
following the right action by not opening the door to them
or letting them know I am at home.

I can't imagine a LEGITIMATE traveling salesman having anything I'd have the SLIGHTEST interest in buying.

I'm pretty much unaware of any legit traveling salesmen dealing in firearms, jazz fusion CDs, or books on firearms, inter-war bi-plane fighters, history, Asian languages or the Great Purge of 1937-1938.

 

[mc5aw]

I think this is the crazy **** that gives gun owners a bad rap. Just because you may have a concealed weapons permit or just keep a gun in the home for protection doesn't mean you have to think you're probably going to have to use it every time you answer the door. Maybe if you feel that way you should move out of the "hood" to someplace you can feel safe.

Think what you like. It's absurd blanket generalizations like the above that give gun forum members a bad rap. Ever heard of the Castle Doctrine? Ever check national statistics on home invasions? If you did, you might realize that maintaining one's sense of alert and vigilance within one's home is the prudent course of action. Assuming that a person coming to the door armed = that person thinking he is "probably going to have to use it every time [he] answers the door" is as ridiculous as applying the same flawed logic to individuals who CCW. Additionally, the "hood" is not the exclusive domain for home invasions or violent residential crimes, nor is it the only place where home owners may feel unsafe, or at the very least, cautious. If you're so confident in your assertions, why not post a thread inquiring as to how many S&W Forum members answer the door armed, then cross reference that total with the number of S&W Forum thread respondents who live in the "hood". Then post the results.

 

[Rastoff]

Ever check national statistics on home invasions?

Yes, actually, I have. The thing is, you won't find any. The reason you won't find any is that the term "home invasion" has no legal definition. Since this has never been defined, it's a hard question to answer.

The closest thing I can find that relates to a "home invasion" would be a break in (burglary) where someone was home. I found this on the Bureau of Justice Statistics website:

• The rate of household burglary decreased 56% from 1994 to 2011, from a peak of 63.4 victimizations per 1,000 U.S. households in 1994 to 27.6 victimizations per 1,000 households in 2011.
• From 1994 to 2011, the rate of completed burglary decreased by at least half across households headed by persons of all races and Hispanic origin.
• Among all completed burglaries, those involving the theft of an electronic device or household appliance increased from 28% in 2001 to 34% in 2011.

So, burglary is on the decrease for the most part. However, this could be due to an increase in public awareness. I wouldn't fault anyone for being diligent. I don't think having a gun with you is a bad thing. I don't think not opening the door is a bad thing.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

I agree with you about not answering the door after 8:00pm.
I just do not answer at all nor make turn on a lights which are
turned off by then. I find this issue fascinating. I think there
is a lot more risk than people realize in answering the door to
anyone you do not know. I found this interesting link.
http://www.travelingsalescrews.info/An Industry Rife With Fraud 082111.htm. This link shows a number
of very bad criminals that have engaged in this traveling salesmen activity, and enough to convince me that I am
following the right action by not opening the door to them
or letting them know I am at home.

I never realized how much danger I might be avoiding by just
not opening the door at all or making a sound unless they try to gain entry by kicking my door in, and then I am on very safe
legal ground in Texas to take them down when the door comes down.

My dog goes nuts when someone knocks on my door. Can't imagine the thought process that would lead someone to try to gain entry after hearing that. She's a pretty serious canine.

Of course, were I home, she'd be backed up by me with one of these.

And one of these in my holster.

 

[TexasArmed]

quote: Hawkeye:
My dog goes nuts when someone knocks on my door. Can't imagine the thought process that would lead someone to try to gain entry after hearing that. She's a pretty serious canine.
unquote:

Yes but you have that option. Many apartment complexes including the one I am in do not allow dogs unless you already have one. So I can't
have one and comply with their rules.

When I am not home I usually have an attendant here with my daughter
and if security is needed she knows how to shoot. But she knows not to
open the door to any traveling salesmen or strangers.

 

[Doug M.]

All this guy did was put his hand on his jacket over where his gun was and he was arrested. He was eventually acquitted but only after a year's worth of trials and attorney fees.
*
One of the problems here is the poor judgment of LE, and the even worse judgment of prosecutors. I am confident that in neither of the offices in which I have worked in this state, and at least one in the other state, that referral would have gotten a "no charge" decision pretty quickly. The cops have an obligation to try to respond to calls, and to write reports when justified, but prosecutors have pretty much unfettered discretion and anyone who would file that when the facts indicate anything that would support the affirmative defense as tactically sound has WAY too much time on their hands. Fortunately, we have a complete statutory defense at our homes for the similar offense in WA, and overcoming it would be very unlikely.

As for "home invasion:" there is a crime by that name in at least one state IIRC (Illinois). Here, it would be burglary one.

 

[TexasArmed]

Think what you like. It's absurd blanket generalizations like the above that give gun forum members a bad rap. Ever heard of the Castle Doctrine? Ever check national statistics on home invasions? If you did, you might realize that maintaining one's sense of alert and vigilance within one's home is the prudent course of action. Assuming that a person coming to the door armed = that person thinking he is "probably going to have to use it every time [he] answers the door" is as ridiculous as applying the same flawed logic to individuals who CCW. Additionally, the "hood" is not the exclusive domain for home invasions or violent residential crimes, nor is it the only place where home owners may feel unsafe, or at the very least, cautious. If you're so confident in your assertions, why not post a thread inquiring as to how many S&W Forum members answer the door armed, then cross reference that total with the number of S&W Forum thread respondents who live in the "hood". Then post the results.

Your right, why do those who are affluent enough not to be on the front lines of society's problems of recycling criminals, burglars, and other felons, always think that moving is the adequate thing to solve the problem? Reminds me of those
folks who have their expensive security systems and their
armed security guards. In Texas the common folks who have
gun permits have to provide their own protection, they don't
pay for someone else to do it or move to gated communities
where they can feel safer.

And stats about how infrequent such things are typically not
accurately reported. I have seen a lot of cases of violent crimes
people commit but are right back out on the streets the same
day. One I previously mentioned was wanted for armed robbery, kidnapping and armed sexual assault. These affluent
neighborhoods that supposedly do not have a problem cost a
lot more money to live in, and I for one was not born with a
silver spoon in my mouth.

 

[Kensterfly]

We live in a rural area and rarely EVER get unexpected visitors. We can easily glance out the front window to see a vehicle in the drive. If I don't recognize the vehicle, and especially if there is NOT a vehicle, I pick up my front door .38 from it's little hide-y hole and keep it by my side. I will query the "guest" through the always locked, unopened door which is largely glass so I can easily peak through the door curtain. If I decide to open the door, the gun is in hand at my side but slightly out of view.

Only one time ever have I really opened the door on full alert. That was back when we lived in the big city. (Houston) Really scraggly looking guy and young woman claiming some nonsense about being lost and needing directions. Kept asking all sorts of stupid questions while looking around nervously. I finally stepped a little more into view and they saw a .357 six inch barrel Ruger Blackhawk in my hand, still discretely, but now visibly, at my side. I asked "is there anything else I can help you with?"
They quickly departed.

Maybe four or five times since we moved to the country have I answered (not necessarily opened) the door gun in hand.

 

[Smoke]

I am confident that in neither of the offices in which I have worked in this state, and at least one in the other state, that referral would have gotten a "no charge" decision pretty quickly.

Maybe, maybe not I don't have an extra 10K laying around that I want to spend finding out.

 

[RevTracy]

Well, folks...I'm done with this thread, with one last comment. Here's something to think about as you argue back and fourth on this topic. Yesterday while I had a meeting after our worship services, four teenagers came into our unlocked church building, broke into my office and stole my personal laptop and briefcase. Now these thugs have my personal information, files, pictures, etc., including my home address and my wife's work address. In addition, all of my tax information for filing 2013 taxes was in a file folder in my briefcase. If you were in my place how would you answer the door in the coming months/years?