45-70 loads (read before post)

[ArchAngelCD]

I have been reloading for the 45-70 a little and I'm looking for pet loads from other reloaders.

I'm only looking for loads using a 405gr cast bullet and either 4198 or AA5744 ONLY!

I don't have a lot of components so I'm asking you all what your favorite loads using those components are. NO OTHER POWDERS PLEASE! I know every rifle is different but many times a good load is a good load in more than 1 rifle.

I'm looking for Trapdoor pressure loads using a 405gr Cast bullet. I'm using a CCI-200 primer.
The two loads I have been trying out are:
34.0gr H4198
29.0gr AA5744
I think I like AA5744 more than 4198 so I will probably be working with that powder most. Please, only your pet loads you have personally shot and please do not suggest other powders. The only other powder I would have considered was IMR SR4759 but since I have none left and it's going to be discontinued at the end of the year I'm going to bypass using hard to find and expensive components to work up loads using SR4759.

Thank you...

 

[rockquarry]

By 405 grain cast, I assume you are describing the popular Lyman #457193 plainbase flatnose design or something very similar like the RCBS gas check version. With the Lyman design I have used 31 - 33 grains IMR-4198 with good results. I've also used 28 grains 5744 with the same bullet; slightly more accurate than the IMR-4198 loads. CCI large rifle primers used.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I inherited 400 cast and sized 457193 bullets, plus 80 loaded over ffg black, about 55 over 1680, and 80 over 5744. I have 13 of the original 5744's left. These were loaded for trapdoors and old 86's. I shot these rounds from a Browning 1886 with a 26" barrel in a speed rifle contest. 5 rounds as fast as you can, 105 yards, offhand; group 1.75" time 3.2 seconds (only time I came in first in anything!) The load is listed as follows; XMP 5744 25.0 grains. Primers; WLR . Cases; Remington. COAL; 2.550" and Lee crimp die was used is noted. The best 45-70 load for accuracy I ever found, sorry I never cronigraphed them. The alloy is on the hard side and I believe it is wheel weights. I don't have the mould, but I prefer 20:1 lead/tin for target loads in all my castings for 45-70. I save the WW bullets for higher velocity loads or high penetration. I have tested AA5744 against the earlier XMP5744 and have found no practical difference in this load.

Like I said inherited the ammo and bullets, and have enjoyed them very much, but every time I shoot some of them I would rather have my friend back! Hope you enjoy the load.

When you are ready for some outstanding loads in Clean shot or black powder; PM me. Have fun! Ivan

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Thank you both very much, very helpful info...

 

[venomballistics]

Just started to play with it myself.
bored out a mold and scored a few good candidates for it as well.
going with that what I can find, I'm starting with rl7.
data seems to favor the accurate arms stuff though.
when times get better. ...

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Depending on the distance you are shooting. Trail Boss is doing real good with the 300 and 400 grain bullets at pretty slow speeds. For hard impacting (1800-2100 fps) loads 3031 gives fantastic results. It is hard to give a exact load for Trail Boss. The best loads are very specific to the components. Trail Boss performs best with a small gap (1/16") between the top of the powder column and the base of the bullet. If you change one component you need to re-work the load. YOU MUST NOT COMPRESS TRAIL BOSS!!! But I have been getting fantastic groups (less than 1/4" centers for a 20 shot group at 100 yards in my 38-55 High Wall). I also have a Lyman mould, # 457438 RN,GC weighs in at 383 grains in Wheel Weights. This is a great bullet but not a bullet for tubular magazines. But in the 1500 to 1600 fps range it is great for target or hunting. I use it lever guns; 1 in the chamber and 1 (and only 1) in the tube. The is off for the OP but other might like it.

ArchAngleCD what rifle are you using?

 

[Joe A.]

I've used 29 grains of 5744 powder behind the 405 grain cast bullet in an original 1885 Winchester which I had rebarreled and the load was extremely accurate.

 

[Vulcan Bob]

For an easy on the shoulder and accurate 405gr LRNFP load for my Marlin 1895 CB I use 27.0gr of AA-5744.

 

[bbqncigars]

My Marlin 1895CB loves 28gr of IMR4198 behind a Meister 405gr boolit. A tuft of dacron is placed over the powder. Very accurate mild shooting load.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

It looks like I should drop my charge of AA5744 back to 25.0gr to 27.0gr and see what I get.

Ivan,
I'm shooting an original Model 1884 Trapdoor and a Marlin levergun but the ammo I'm asking about will mostly be for the Trapdoor.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I would think that a soft cast pure lead or 20:1 alloy with a black powder charge of around 70 grain (use a drop tube) would give you very good and safe results. Clean up isn't that hard using warm to hot soapy water. Out of that long barrel you should have pretty good velocity and accuracy. I know, I know, NO NEW POWDERS. but black powder is really old and will do a really good job, the rifling in your 1884 was designed to use B.P. and soft lead bullets. It is easy for me to say, but I avoided B.P. for about 25 years because of all the common complaints. I started playing a little. Then I bought a Shiloh Sharps 45-70 and refuse to put anything in it but BP. You already have the gun (that's the hard part) and you use the same dies and mould. Pa. is a big BP state for hunting so supplies shouldn't be too hard to find. It is loud, is smells, and there is a cloud (you start to look forward to that). but the accuracy can be unbelievable! In the Indian Wars an aimed shot knocked a man from his horse at a mile! That is 1 MOA or better at 1760 yards. At Thunder Valley in eastern Ohio, they have a mile gong. You've the gun for it, it just takes practice (and load development). My eyes just won't handle the sights anymore, so I have a Unirtel 15x, 1" tube, I'm getting ready to mount on my Sharps. If you decide you want any information just PM me. Ivan

 

[glowe]

I don't have a lot of components so I'm asking you all what your favorite loads using those components are. NO OTHER POWDERS PLEASE! I know every rifle is different but many times a good load is a good load in more than 1 rifle...

I am going to violate your rule for your own good! My thought on reloading is to find the best components for the job, and that usually requires trying DIFFERENT POWDERS until you find the best load. I have loaded 45-70 in both the powders you mention plus 4320, black powder, pyrodex, etc., but have found the best powder for my rifles only by experimentation.

Several things affect accuracy in original and reproduction single shots. Powder selection, rate of twist, alloy in bullet, volume of powder in case, etc. are all important factors to consider. Also, I notice you did not have any velocities, but feel that is a very important part of reloading in my opinion.

If you are reloading smokeless powder in 45-70, you should consider IMR 3031 and Puff-Lon for reloading. 3031 is easy to find at almost any gun store and one of the most accepted powders for reloading this caliber and offers velocities that work well in most slow twist guns from trap doors, falling block through lever-actions. I get the lowest standard deviation by using Puff-Lon case filler and ultimately the best accuracy. The purpose of Puff-Lon is to hold the powder against the primer in large volume cases to get fast and complete ignition. My most accurate loads with 405g RNFP are 40 grains of 3031 with Puff-Lon yielding 1400 fps and 45 grains with Puff-Lon traveling at 1600 fps.

Hope you get out there and try new powders before you settle on only one or two for your trap door.

 

[Engineer1911]

When you get a 5-leaf clover at 100 yards with iron sights and AA5744 powder, I believe you have found the right powder on the first try.

I use only AA5744 in 45-70 for my Quigley replica from Taylors Arms. I've tried other powders, but nothing was even close to the results from AA5744.

 

[Neumann]

I am not a lawyer, nor do I wish to hire one if I recommend a load which proves disastrous to the user.

If you don't have the Lyman 59th Ed manual, get one! It has separate sections for trapdoor, lever action and falling block rifles, which are sequentially stronger. I use a lot of LaserCast bullets, and Oregon Trails has an excellent handbook with cowboy (light) through medium level loads.

In any event, start light and work up slowly, checking for signs of pressure. Measure the bullets and your bore, and resize the bullets if necessary. They should be slightly larger than the groove diameter of your barrel for proper obduration.

It's all about peak pressure, which can only be measured with test barrels and instrumentation.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Neumann, inquiring minds want to know... Where did you find a 59th edition? I have 45th (ca. 1970) and 46th and 49th (ca. 2011). I thought the 59th was circa 2073 and a mental-download only version. Ivan

 

[Green Frog]

Archangel, I'm sorry your original post specifically blocked out 4759 as I have been fortunate enough to squirrel away about 15-20 pounds of the stuff. I'd love to see some 45-70 loads for it using the "standard" 405 grain LFN bullet. I do have a little bit of 4198 that's been around for 20 years or so, and I guess I should go ahead and use that up on something. I don't even know where I would start looking for 5744 here in powder-poor Central VA!

If anybody wants to send me a PM with any good 4759 data, maybe the 'angel will forgive me for trying to hijack his thread!

Froggie

 

[Smith357]

I recommend you get the book "LOADING CARTRIDGES FOR THE ORIGINAL .45-70 SPRINGFIELD" by J.S. and Pat Wolf. I struggled for a time to find a accurate load for the trapdoor, until I found the book, then everything changed. I bought the Lee "SC 459-405HB" 405 grain hollow base mold, I have not used either of the powders you have, I have tried IMR4895 with good results, but my pet load is using the 405 grain soft lead HB bullet sized to .458, pan lubed with 80/20 bee's wax/olive oil mix, over a compressed load of 60 grains of FF Goex and run through a Lee factory crimp die.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I am not a lawyer, nor do I wish to hire one if I recommend a load which proves disastrous to the user.

If you don't have the Lyman 59th Ed manual, get one! It has separate sections for trapdoor, lever action and falling block rifles, which are sequentially stronger. I use a lot of LaserCast bullets, and Oregon Trails has an excellent handbook with cowboy (light) through medium level loads.

In any event, start light and work up slowly, checking for signs of pressure. Measure the bullets and your bore, and resize the bullets if necessary. They should be slightly larger than the groove diameter of your barrel for proper obduration.

It's all about peak pressure, which can only be measured with test barrels and instrumentation.

First of all the highest number for the Lyman manual is the 49th Edition and I have it along with about 2 dozen other manuals and links for all the powder and bullet manufacturers who supply data. Like I said in my OP,
I have tried several loads and was looking for some pet loads from fellow reloaders. I have been at this for a very long time and was hoping for help finding a few loads using the powders I currently have and want to use. I did not ask for a reloading lesson thank you.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I am going to violate your rule for your own good! My thought on reloading is to find the best components for the job, and that usually requires trying DIFFERENT POWDERS until you find the best load. I have loaded 45-70 in both the powders you mention plus 4320, black powder, pyrodex, etc., but have found the best powder for my rifles only by experimentation.

Several things affect accuracy in original and reproduction single shots. Powder selection, rate of twist, alloy in bullet, volume of powder in case, etc. are all important factors to consider. Also, I notice you did not have any velocities, but feel that is a very important part of reloading in my opinion.

If you are reloading smokeless powder in 45-70, you should consider IMR 3031 and Puff-Lon for reloading. 3031 is easy to find at almost any gun store and one of the most accepted powders for reloading this caliber and offers velocities that work well in most slow twist guns from trap doors, falling block through lever-actions. I get the lowest standard deviation by using Puff-Lon case filler and ultimately the best accuracy. The purpose of Puff-Lon is to hold the powder against the primer in large volume cases to get fast and complete ignition. My most accurate loads with 405g RNFP are 40 grains of 3031 with Puff-Lon yielding 1400 fps and 45 grains with Puff-Lon traveling at 1600 fps.

Hope you get out there and try new powders before you settle on only one or two for your trap door.

Your post is bordering on insulting if not actually insulting. Who are you to think you know what's best for me? How can you know what I do or don't do or what I know? I have 10 rifle powders on hand and at least another dozen handgun powders too. I'm saving my dwindling supplies of IMR3031 for jacketed 45-70 loads shot in my Marlin levergun. I want to use 4198 and AA5744 for my Trapdoor loads because all the research I have done online and personally tells me those are best. Powders may be easy to find where you live but not so where I live. You talk about case volume all the while ignoring how bulky AA5744 is, no filler "Puff-Lon" needed. I have been known to have a different powder for each cartridge I load and even different powders for the same cartridge shot from different rifles. You are so of base here and seem to be too arrogant to see it.

Try not to be so insulting and think you are above me because nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I recommend you get the book "LOADING CARTRIDGES FOR THE ORIGINAL .45-70 SPRINGFIELD" by J.S. and Pat Wolf. I struggled for a time to find a accurate load for the trapdoor, until I found the book, then everything changed. I bought the Lee "SC 459-405HB" 405 grain hollow base mold, I have not used either of the powders you have, I have tried IMR4895 with good results, but my pet load is using the 405 grain soft lead HB bullet sized to .458, pan lubed with 80/20 bee's wax/olive oil mix, over a compressed load of 60 grains of FF Goex and run through a Lee factory crimp die.

Thank you for the book suggestion. I took a look on Amazon and the cheapest one they have right now is $34.95 and they go up to $119.95. I have it on my watch list so if it comes down a little I'll order it. One guy is selling 3 used copies with a price tag of a whopping $999.12 each, that can't be but who knows! LOL