dickttx
Member
NOTHING I do related to reloading, casting, or shooting is anywhere close to the danger of driving to the range.
CLEANING BRASS CAN BE HAZARDESS TO YOUR HEALTH
- Thread starter marathonrunner
- Start date
You're right. It's not. On the other hand, this particular issue has been ratcheted up from "kids chewing lead paint isn't good" to "no known safe level".
Take a look at OSHA regulations and see if you think they generally strike a reasonable balance between safety and practicality.
THEWELSHM
Member
That's what I do, then add polish to the media. They look better than factory....
thewelshm
Damn Yankee
Member
Do shinny cases shoot better than dull cases? I make sure mine are the correct length and size correctly.
Lunker
Member
They are easier to inspect for cracks, metal fatigue, etc.
fredj338
Member
Sounds like your are rik adverse. For you, shooting at all is unhealthy, reloads or factory. Unles you are using lead free primers & encapsulated bullets & shooting outdoors, you are exposing yourself to lead every time you shoot.
I too have used a Thumler's Tumbler for at least that length of time and cast my own bullets for years and handled wheel weights for 47 of my working years and have not had a problem. I have been retired for 8 years and still going strong. Lead dust from a tumbler? How can that happen?
If your 'reloading machine' is not made by Lee, I'll give you $30 plus shipping for your entire set-up. SMSGT gave you a lo-ball offer.
HOPSTER
Member
Marathonrunner,
Who is "they" with respect to "they say reloaders who use tumblers........"?????
The biggest push to ban lead is from the anti-gun agenda organizations trying to instill fear, not the medical or environmental community, as far as internet publications/exposure . I do believe there is a valid concern for lead absorption, but they are using this now as a new tactic, accusing shooters and reloaders of "exposing their children to lead".
Is this "they" ?:
Lead Pollution at Outdoor Firing Ranges: Poisonous Pastime | Environmental Working Group
Once again I ask- where is the science ?
Who has tested the corncob dust for lead levels to come up with these remarks ?
I'll go along with "government" recommendations for maximum lead levels for now, since it is harmless to use caution. But when the caution and common sense approaches hysteria, I'm now skeptical, being naturally distrustful of all forms of unfounded hysteria. I have no doubt that some persons have elevated lead, but I want to see the correlation between that and their activities that led (no pun intended) to that condition.
I'm open for being corrected on this but I don't think molten lead "fumes" cause lead poisoning. I think the problem is when the lead is fluxed and then we are talking about different toxins.
So the next step is to ban all surplus ammo I guess, because some of it has "mercuric" primers, and that sounds awfully close to that deadly "M" word.
I have read here numerous people talking about how dangerous tumbling media dust is, but not one reference at all as to how they came to this conclusion. We know that primers have lead styphnate, so we assume this is the same as "lead".
And I think that is where the misinformation comes into play.
Actually it is more of an irritant than a toxin, but common sense measures are to be taken, just not to the extent that it is somehow the same as plutonium dust, as some folks seem to think.
From the MSDS for lead Styphnate:
"Wear impervious (cut-resistant) gloves and other protective clothing (aprons, coveralls) as appropriate to prevent skin contact when using this product. If generating a dust, wash thoroughly after handling, especially before eating, drinking,
or smoking.
RESPIRATORY PROTECTION: Respiratory protection not normally needed. If dusting occurs or fumes are generated above the PEL/TLV, use a NIOSH-approved half-face or full-face respirator equipped with High Efficiency Particulate (HEPA) filter cartridges.
GENERAL HYGIENE CONSIDERATIONS: Do not eat, drink, or smoke while using this product in dust form."
Bear in mind this is for unburned lead styphnate as a factory worker might be exposed to, not the ash and residue left in a fired cartridge case. There *is* no MSDS for the burned residue and as far as I know, no science that has determined whether it is still toxic after being "exploded" (burned/incinerated) in the cartridge.
I imagine most of the, ahem, more elderly among us have long ago been exposed to substantial amounts of lead paint in our childhood homes with nil effects.
If you lick your fingers after lead, you might be a moron. Don't be a moron, wash your hands.
If you lick your fingers after lead, you might be a moron. Don't be a moron, wash your hands.
fredj338
Member
When you fire a round, lead stiphante, used in primers, is deposited in the air & left behind inside the case. When you dry tumble, this get deposited in the fine dust of the media used. Airborne, it can be inhaled in enough volume to be toxic over time. So, wear a dust mask, empty upwind, wash your hands. I'll also wipe down the inside of the tumbler & separator very few times to remove the fine dust. Just because there is no empirical testing doesn't mean you should suspend common sense. Wash your hands, don't smoke or eat while casting or handling lead, simple stuff.
"They" are people who have it on good authority from other "theys".
I don't disagree - as we know, the anti-gun crowd will seize on anything that they think will advance their agenda.
I think this is a fair question - I know I'm not aware of any data on lead content of tumbling media, and I've done some looking. I do, however, have a good friend, who also happens to be an active shooter, and owns an large analytical chemistry laboratory. I'll ask him to run a sample of his own well-used tumbling media and report back on this thread what he finds. (I really don't know why I haven't thought of this earlier)
I can give you one very well-documented case study (well-documented to me, that is, because it's my own). I'm an active bullseye shooter and at one time was spending 4 to 5 evenings a week shooting in poorly ventilated indoor ranges. One of my team members happened to have his serum lead level tested and it came back at about 60 ug/dl (micrograms per deciliter - the recommended max for adults is currently 10 ug/dl). That prompted me to have mine tested and I was at 31 ug/dl. Without getting into all the details, we both started wearing half-face respirators with P100 filters while shooting, but otherwise did not change anything else we were doing. In a year, he was down to the mid-20s (as I recall) and I came down to 11.9 ug/dl. A year after that, I was down to 7.9 ug/dl. That, to me at least, is a pretty conclusive demonstration of a few things: (1) inhalation of air from indoor ranges can result in lead poisoning; (2) you can limit your exposure by wearing a respirator; and (3) your body does eliminate lead if exposure is reduced, albeit slowly.
I'm not a bullet caster, but everything I've read seems to indicate that smelting lead does not produce a lot of lead fumes. Still, if I were a caster I'd be sure to do it in a well-ventilated area and might consider wearing a respirator with the appropriate filter - which I believe may not be a P100, which is specific for particulate lead.
Exposure to lead styphnate results in elevated serum lead, so it really is the same as being exposed to lead, recognizing of course that gram for gram there's less lead in a quantity of lead styphnate than there is in the same quantity of elemental lead.
Remember that MSDSs are written by each manufacturer, so there is no "the" MSDS for lead styphnate, rather a number of MSDSs, which do not necessarily present the risks in the same way, in spite of using the same general format. I've actually written a few MSDSs (not for lead or lead styphnate) under contract, and the process is not nearly as regulated as it might seem. I think if you were to read the Olin lead styphnate MSDS (and maybe others) you'd reconsider whether it's more of an irritant than a toxicant - the fact is, it's both. No question, there are many more hazardous chemicals that we come in contact with every day, but that doesn't make lead styphnate benign. Of course, unless someone likes to take primers apart and play with the little wafer inside, the average person, even the average reloader, will never contact [uncombusted] lead styphnate directly.
There's actually a pretty large body of literature out there on that question, but it's in the area of forensics, not toxicology. If you search on "Gunshot Residue" or "GSR" you'll find a lot of papers on all of the various combustion products from firing a gun. Combustion of lead styphnate priming compound does, in fact, result in very fine (as in a few-um-sized) particles of elemental lead, combined with other elements such as barium. At least one paper I looked at said the primer-derived lead could not be distinguished from projectile-derived lead, so it's not clear whether the main source in, say, indoor shooting ranges is the primer or the bullet, so those claiming that priming compound is the primary culprit I think are just repeating what they've heard from others who are just repeating what they've heard. Although the research is largely silent on the question of whether such particles, if inhaled, would lead to elevated lead levels [forensics, not toxicology], I think it's a reasonable assumption that they will. More to the point, however, is that I think we can conclude that there will be some lead residue left in the primer cup and on the case (probably some there from the bullet as well) after a cartridge is fired, and so there will be lead residue in tumbling media.
Now, saying that some toxicant is simply present is not the same thing as saying it is present in sufficient quantity to pose a risk, which brings us back to the question of whether the dust from a tumbler is hazardous to your health. I don't know the answer to that question, but it's a pretty simple matter to avoid breathing the dust, so I take a few common-sense precautions to avoid doing that. And I have my doctor add lead to the list of analytes for my blood workup as part of my annual physical to ensure that my shooting hobby - whether the source be reloading, shooting indoors, or breathing tumbler dust - is not potentially compromising my health.
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HOPSTER
Member
Flyfish, I have to agree with most of what you wrote and I want to emphasize that I am not calling fired cartridge cases "benign". Like yourself, I simply want to know the truth.
I know there is exact science to prove that range safety officers and police trainers and people who spent significant time at indoor ranges acquired lead poisoning. I don't want to inhale freshly burned primer smoke and lead dust and I avoid indoor ranges.
I don't shoot cowboy action splattering lead dust on steel plates nearby. I shoot at a dirt berm 50,100, and 300 yards away, outdoors. I agree that indoor ranges are toxic places but that the problem can be mitigated with appropriate maintenance, filtration, and I do think it will soon be considered "manly" and routine to wear a respirator as we become aware of the hazards.
My main point was to balance the hysteria with reason and common sense. We can repeat things over and over until we consider them "proven" by constant repetition, the proverbial "they say that (insert statement here)".
I don't lick the inside of fired cartridges (common sense).
I follow the casual (read: not hysterical) hygienic practices to avoid ingesting lead. But in the articles I managed to find that were written by persons or agencies without an agenda - indoor ranges are the main culprit in persons diagnosed with lead poisoning, not reloading ammo.
I don't do much dry tumbling anymore since I started wet tumbling, but common sense would tell me to change the media once in awhile with fresh cob. When I suggest that tumbling dust may not be as harmful as "repeated warnings" say, I refer to someone who changes the media out once in awhile, not those penny pinchers who insist on using it over and over for years. In a two gallon bucket of media that has cleaned twenty thousand rounds in the last eight years - well , common sense says it's probably pretty damn toxic.
I know there is exact science to prove that range safety officers and police trainers and people who spent significant time at indoor ranges acquired lead poisoning. I don't want to inhale freshly burned primer smoke and lead dust and I avoid indoor ranges.
I don't shoot cowboy action splattering lead dust on steel plates nearby. I shoot at a dirt berm 50,100, and 300 yards away, outdoors. I agree that indoor ranges are toxic places but that the problem can be mitigated with appropriate maintenance, filtration, and I do think it will soon be considered "manly" and routine to wear a respirator as we become aware of the hazards.
My main point was to balance the hysteria with reason and common sense. We can repeat things over and over until we consider them "proven" by constant repetition, the proverbial "they say that (insert statement here)".
I don't lick the inside of fired cartridges (common sense).
I follow the casual (read: not hysterical) hygienic practices to avoid ingesting lead. But in the articles I managed to find that were written by persons or agencies without an agenda - indoor ranges are the main culprit in persons diagnosed with lead poisoning, not reloading ammo.
I don't do much dry tumbling anymore since I started wet tumbling, but common sense would tell me to change the media once in awhile with fresh cob. When I suggest that tumbling dust may not be as harmful as "repeated warnings" say, I refer to someone who changes the media out once in awhile, not those penny pinchers who insist on using it over and over for years. In a two gallon bucket of media that has cleaned twenty thousand rounds in the last eight years - well , common sense says it's probably pretty damn toxic.
As you noted, indoor range hazards are not universal. I think newer ones with appropriate negative pressure ventilation can be quite safe.
Along with the notable thread list already linked to here is another good page that folks can click on the PDF links. If you do not care to believe the CDC, NIOSH or the EPA then carry on.
CDC - NIOSH Publications and Products - Preventing Occupational Exposures to Lead and Noise at Indoor Firing Ranges (2009-136)
CDC - NIOSH Publications and Products - Preventing Occupational Exposures to Lead and Noise at Indoor Firing Ranges (2009-136)
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Don't feed the trolls! I can't find the graphic.
I don't know how much of this is flavored to their sales department, but some of it sounds right on:
Rainier Ballistics, LLC | Risks of Airborne Lead
I make sure I get on the upstream of the indoors range air intake to make myself feel psychologically feel better. That way if I get lung cancer I can blame it on brake dust from the commuting on the freeway.
From the documents/tests I have posted and read I would agree that totally copper clad bullets would provide less lead exposure, but what that Rainier link is not mentioning is the PRIMERS.
Our County Sheriff indoor range (open to the public sometimes) is a state of the art facility. You must use their ammo which is frangible bullets and lead free primer ammo.
Indoor ranges should have the air at you back blowing it away from you. If it is not a lead free range Indoors I would wear a ball cap also, Dust and particles in your hair,also what about your range bag, dust settles on it and then it goes in the car, home and you handle it.
You mention driving on the freeway, one of the studies show what the average blood levels are in non shooter is highly polluted cities. So there are lots of sources. Live in a old home with lead pipes and solder joints.??
jmmitc06
Member
I see these posts all the time, so much so I wish we could sticky some of the questions/responses.
To give you some info about me so you will know I'm not just making stuff up. I'm a biochemist and an MD/PhD student currently working on the PhD portion (done with most of MD) and the fusion of biochem with medicine has taught me quite alot about heavy metals both from a chemistry perspective and a clinical perspective.
The first would be that I think that safe common sense practices basically eliminate the risk of lead exposure from reloading. These are practices that I follow when I reload such as no drinking or eating while reloading and for those who smoke, no smoking (explosions???) either while reloading. The reason for this is that the majority of lead exposure comes in two forms: inhalation and injestion. So if my hands touch lead products such as bullets or primers I wash them before I eat or drink, which you should be doing anyways since nitro compounds aren't very friendly either. Lead residue on your hands, which there is some when handling these products is not a major concern since lead does not easily pass through the skin.
As for tumbling, again common sense. Yes I would imagine some lead is kicked up into the air during tumbling but honestly it won't go that far so don't stand over the tumbler while it's happening breathing in the fumes and there's little to worry about. Same thing for dumping the stuff out, put a trash bag over it and dump it into the bag. Using different media really doesn't change the issue the amount of lead is the same and in some ways dealing with powdered elemental lead is safer than potentially solvated lead salts. Elemental lead (Pb not Pb ions or salts) is more or less inert it's salts are a different issue. I would probably not tumble in living quarters so the garage or deck is a good option just because good ventilation will remove the lead particulates. If you cast same rules apply, don't boil the lead and breath fumes, don't cast indoors, except I think if I were to cast I may wear a mask but it's likely not necessary.
People often discuss lead levels as indicators of health with respect to lead, unfortunately this is not a good measure of lead toxicity. Discussing low or high levels is largely pointless as the normal values for serum lead are essentially zero. The reason for ordering lead tests is manifold. First, we are in at-risk group for lead exposure and the test is a good way to make sure we don't have values much greater than our personal baselines. So our low levels are still elevated compared to a random individual but a spike in our levels is still indicative of a problem. Second, although all detectable lead levels are high levels, the symptoms of lead poisoning are difficult to detect and more difficult to assign to heavy metal toxicity. At certain levels there is definite damage being done even if the patient is unaware of it (which is often the case) so by making sure our levels don't approach these values the physician can check for hidden pathology. Third, if you give one of us a chance to run a test, we probably will. Not to make money but if a patient came in telling me he worked in a battery factory I would get some cadmium levels ran. Now if you are worried ask the doctor to check you, but some will say no if the test isn't justified in his opinion which is probably the correct choice from a stats perspective.
As for indoor range safety, that risk is more or less been studied by the scientific community. See "Lead exposure in indoor firing ranges" by Bengt-Goran Svensson (link to abstract at end) where it is demonstrated that weekly indoor pistol shooing produced a significant increase in blood Pb levels and that indoor ranges have detectable airborne levels of lead (~660 micrograms / cubic meter; range 112-2238). So while this means you get exposed to lead when you shoot indoors, let's just say I still go to the indoor range on a biweekly basis (would go more often if I could), I'm not that worried but these values are 40x the OSHA allowed levels (but those are for chronic exposure). So the indoor range is not a 'risk-free' nor lead free environment, but if you aren't there every day I would continue using the same primers, bullets and such you already have. I would only discontinue if I had a medical reason not to go, which would be lead levels close to one of the before mentioned values at which pathology is inevitable. So I understand why some ranges care what you shoot since they are there everyday but for you and me, it's not that big of a deal. There are more links to articles at the end (abstracts only most likely unless you have journal access to them). Additionally, the only issue with most of the methodology is that they don't discuss how the ranges are ventilated, but I would reckon these results are typical.
If I had a child right now (heaven forbid, I need money for guns and computers) I would more or less do the same thing except keep the stuff more out of range for little hands. I would wash hands after reloading (maybe shower?) and shooting because children are sticky and attract all sorts of stuff and for the little ones injestion is the most common cause of problems, thats the whole issue with lead paint. It's not that having a lead painted house is bad it's that lead paint tastes pleasing (evidently, never tried it) and kids eat it. Add to that the fact that lead damages neurons which are developing in children you have a recipe for disaster. So if I had a kid, I would keep the stuff put away and tumble/cast away from the kid.
Sorry this is long, but in conclusion: The risk for lead toxicity is real and we as reloaders are at an increased risk. Common sense can really reduce it but expect to be exposed to lead and always tell the physician you have a hobby that does involve heavy metals. Don't stop reloading because it has lead exposure, I won't unless I had a medical reason too, but just be smart about it. Indoor ranges have high lead levels it's a fact, negative pressure may help but if you can still spread disease out of a negative pressure room for pneumonia patients, you are still getting exposed.
I love reloading, shooting but it's the reality of it, you will be exposed to lead. Don't regret buying your reloading machine, you have a greater chance of being harmed in a house fire, car wreck, freak pyscho killer than of being harmed by reloading. More than likely you'll die of cancer or a heart attack not related to your reloading, so be smart and don't worry. And just a disclaimer, this wasn't medical advice, the whole post.
indoor shooting range lead - Google Scholar
Lead exposure in indoor firing ranges - Springer
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0048969788903099
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To give you some info about me so you will know I'm not just making stuff up. I'm a biochemist and an MD/PhD student currently working on the PhD portion (done with most of MD) and the fusion of biochem with medicine has taught me quite alot about heavy metals both from a chemistry perspective and a clinical perspective.
The first would be that I think that safe common sense practices basically eliminate the risk of lead exposure from reloading. These are practices that I follow when I reload such as no drinking or eating while reloading and for those who smoke, no smoking (explosions???) either while reloading. The reason for this is that the majority of lead exposure comes in two forms: inhalation and injestion. So if my hands touch lead products such as bullets or primers I wash them before I eat or drink, which you should be doing anyways since nitro compounds aren't very friendly either. Lead residue on your hands, which there is some when handling these products is not a major concern since lead does not easily pass through the skin.
As for tumbling, again common sense. Yes I would imagine some lead is kicked up into the air during tumbling but honestly it won't go that far so don't stand over the tumbler while it's happening breathing in the fumes and there's little to worry about. Same thing for dumping the stuff out, put a trash bag over it and dump it into the bag. Using different media really doesn't change the issue the amount of lead is the same and in some ways dealing with powdered elemental lead is safer than potentially solvated lead salts. Elemental lead (Pb not Pb ions or salts) is more or less inert it's salts are a different issue. I would probably not tumble in living quarters so the garage or deck is a good option just because good ventilation will remove the lead particulates. If you cast same rules apply, don't boil the lead and breath fumes, don't cast indoors, except I think if I were to cast I may wear a mask but it's likely not necessary.
People often discuss lead levels as indicators of health with respect to lead, unfortunately this is not a good measure of lead toxicity. Discussing low or high levels is largely pointless as the normal values for serum lead are essentially zero. The reason for ordering lead tests is manifold. First, we are in at-risk group for lead exposure and the test is a good way to make sure we don't have values much greater than our personal baselines. So our low levels are still elevated compared to a random individual but a spike in our levels is still indicative of a problem. Second, although all detectable lead levels are high levels, the symptoms of lead poisoning are difficult to detect and more difficult to assign to heavy metal toxicity. At certain levels there is definite damage being done even if the patient is unaware of it (which is often the case) so by making sure our levels don't approach these values the physician can check for hidden pathology. Third, if you give one of us a chance to run a test, we probably will. Not to make money but if a patient came in telling me he worked in a battery factory I would get some cadmium levels ran. Now if you are worried ask the doctor to check you, but some will say no if the test isn't justified in his opinion which is probably the correct choice from a stats perspective.
As for indoor range safety, that risk is more or less been studied by the scientific community. See "Lead exposure in indoor firing ranges" by Bengt-Goran Svensson (link to abstract at end) where it is demonstrated that weekly indoor pistol shooing produced a significant increase in blood Pb levels and that indoor ranges have detectable airborne levels of lead (~660 micrograms / cubic meter; range 112-2238). So while this means you get exposed to lead when you shoot indoors, let's just say I still go to the indoor range on a biweekly basis (would go more often if I could), I'm not that worried but these values are 40x the OSHA allowed levels (but those are for chronic exposure). So the indoor range is not a 'risk-free' nor lead free environment, but if you aren't there every day I would continue using the same primers, bullets and such you already have. I would only discontinue if I had a medical reason not to go, which would be lead levels close to one of the before mentioned values at which pathology is inevitable. So I understand why some ranges care what you shoot since they are there everyday but for you and me, it's not that big of a deal. There are more links to articles at the end (abstracts only most likely unless you have journal access to them). Additionally, the only issue with most of the methodology is that they don't discuss how the ranges are ventilated, but I would reckon these results are typical.
If I had a child right now (heaven forbid, I need money for guns and computers) I would more or less do the same thing except keep the stuff more out of range for little hands. I would wash hands after reloading (maybe shower?) and shooting because children are sticky and attract all sorts of stuff and for the little ones injestion is the most common cause of problems, thats the whole issue with lead paint. It's not that having a lead painted house is bad it's that lead paint tastes pleasing (evidently, never tried it) and kids eat it. Add to that the fact that lead damages neurons which are developing in children you have a recipe for disaster. So if I had a kid, I would keep the stuff put away and tumble/cast away from the kid.
Sorry this is long, but in conclusion: The risk for lead toxicity is real and we as reloaders are at an increased risk. Common sense can really reduce it but expect to be exposed to lead and always tell the physician you have a hobby that does involve heavy metals. Don't stop reloading because it has lead exposure, I won't unless I had a medical reason too, but just be smart about it. Indoor ranges have high lead levels it's a fact, negative pressure may help but if you can still spread disease out of a negative pressure room for pneumonia patients, you are still getting exposed.
I love reloading, shooting but it's the reality of it, you will be exposed to lead. Don't regret buying your reloading machine, you have a greater chance of being harmed in a house fire, car wreck, freak pyscho killer than of being harmed by reloading. More than likely you'll die of cancer or a heart attack not related to your reloading, so be smart and don't worry. And just a disclaimer, this wasn't medical advice, the whole post.
indoor shooting range lead - Google Scholar
Lead exposure in indoor firing ranges - Springer
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0048969788903099
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