78Staff
Member
Rastoff, it didn't come off that way to me, just seemed like a standard discussion of tactics and readiness... Everybody reads things different I guess - no offense to 2hawk.
AR as a home defense gun?
- Thread starter Rastoff
- Start date
Rastoff, it didn't come off that way to me, just seemed like a standard discussion of tactics and readiness... Everybody reads things different I guess - no offense to 2hawk.
OK, apology accepted, and you have mine if I was being thin skinned. I may have reached the same conclusion you did in reading my remarks, so I owe you one as well.
Sorry for the thread derailment.
Sorry for the thread derailment.
ChattanoogaPhil
Member
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True. And it's not a quiet excersize either. I may not want to advertise my position.
If there's going to be an unloaded gun in the fight, I'd prefer it to be the bad guy's gun.
Waywatcher
Member
My AR was my home defense long gun for a while, but now it is my 20 gauge Remington 870.
Here are some reasons why:
--I have an 18" cylinder barrel on my 870, so it is only a couple inches longer.
--The 20 gauge, loaded, is almost 2 pounds lighter than my loaded Carbine (6.2 vs 7.9).
--The sight offset disadvantage on an AR at close range--POI is about 2" off of POA.
--The 870 with #3 buck puts out twenty .25 caliber pellets per shot, at 1200fps.
--The 870 is less magazine/oil/maintenance dependant.
--The wood-stocked 870 looks less evil to a potential jury. (Not worth making decision on by itself, but worth mentioning.)
--The 870 costs about a quarter of my carbine.
--The 20 gauge with buckshot recoils about the same as a 12 gauge Heavy Target load.
My 870 patterns a bit bigger than the typical inch-per-yard patterns for buckshot, which is great inside my house. The longest possible shot in my house is 10 yards. (About a 12" pattern filled in with twenty pellets, each of which are .25 caliber.)
Here are some reasons why:
--I have an 18" cylinder barrel on my 870, so it is only a couple inches longer.
--The 20 gauge, loaded, is almost 2 pounds lighter than my loaded Carbine (6.2 vs 7.9).
--The sight offset disadvantage on an AR at close range--POI is about 2" off of POA.
--The 870 with #3 buck puts out twenty .25 caliber pellets per shot, at 1200fps.
--The 870 is less magazine/oil/maintenance dependant.
--The wood-stocked 870 looks less evil to a potential jury. (Not worth making decision on by itself, but worth mentioning.)
--The 870 costs about a quarter of my carbine.
--The 20 gauge with buckshot recoils about the same as a 12 gauge Heavy Target load.
My 870 patterns a bit bigger than the typical inch-per-yard patterns for buckshot, which is great inside my house. The longest possible shot in my house is 10 yards. (About a 12" pattern filled in with twenty pellets, each of which are .25 caliber.)
cyphertext
US Veteran
I also keep my shotguns with a full magazine, empty chamber, action closed but unlocked, safety off. In this condition, anyone in our house can grab one, rack the slide, and be ready without worrying about if they grabbed the Mossberg with the tang safety or the 870 with a crossbolt safety.
I also agree with 2hawk that the firearm is a layer in a security system, and should be the last layer. Other layers should include things like motion detecting outdoor lighting, dogs, and alarms...These items can alert you when someone is on the property, before they are in the house.
I also agree with 2hawk that the firearm is a layer in a security system, and should be the last layer. Other layers should include things like motion detecting outdoor lighting, dogs, and alarms...These items can alert you when someone is on the property, before they are in the house.
bhayles
Member
Still - when seconds count - they're only minutes away.
Being fewer minutes away than other locales, doesn't necessarily make it better. Maybe you're warm and dead, rather than cold and dead. Still dead, though.
Surprising a teenage burglar trying to steal your big screen might be solvable with an unfired handgun and a call to 911, but if its a serious, life threatening incident, unless the cops are hidden in the kitchen, waiting for the bad guy, if you aren't prepared to win the fight the police will only have one job when they arrive...to draw a chalkline around your body.
True, when they show up the aforementioned K9s can run down the bad guy, but I can't see that doing you much good when the coroner is snapping pics of your body on your living room floor.
OP
Rastoff
US Veteran
Sure, a layered home defense plan is essential to being prepared. Making your house less of a target is an essential part of that plan. Any kind of violence should be the absolute last line of defense.
Even so, all that is not part of this discussion.
cyphertext
US Veteran
Well, it kinda is, just change my shotgun to my AR... not everyone is going to keep a round chambered. Your view is that the long arm should have a round in chamber to be effective, while I, and others, subscribe to the theory that through a layered defense plan, I "should" have time to retrieve the long arm and make it ready.
bhayles
Member
Yeah...you SHOULD. And if you don't?
My own apology
Experience changes everything. When I wrote this:
I was a mere 8 hours away from entering a home that actually had a sweeping view of the first floor from the second. I have been in many large, 2 story homes, some with balconies, but except for a very few mansion-type homes I have seen none have had wide open, sweeping views from an upper floor to a first floor. Last night I entered just such a home in a relatively new, modestly affluent, residential neighborhood in Richardson, Texas. From the outside I'd never have guessed what the entry looked like.
The room you first enter, I guess you have to call it either an entry room or a foyer, was expansive. To the right was a winding staircase leading to the 3 bedroom, 2 bath second story. The master bedroom, office, dining room, living room, kitchen, etc., were all on the first floor. I'd say the home was at least 4000 square feet. Maybe 4500. Everything was wide open and large beyond what I expected.
The point is, if you were upstairs and there was a crash at the door, anyone entering that foyer is in your sweeping field of fire. The master bedroom being downstairs, and actually nobody living upstairs (a case of conspicuous consumption, I guess), the situation would not actually present itself. But it could.
Because it could happen I apologize for my blatant assumption that none of us find ourselves in such situations. If that house had it, others in that neighborhood must have similar construction. Of all the affluent homes I have ever entered that were not actually "mansions", meaning double digit numbers of rooms with dramatic staircases, etc., I have never seen a home so constructed. Very pretty - and a special situation for home defense plans if I ever saw one!
***GRJ***
Experience changes everything. When I wrote this:
I was a mere 8 hours away from entering a home that actually had a sweeping view of the first floor from the second. I have been in many large, 2 story homes, some with balconies, but except for a very few mansion-type homes I have seen none have had wide open, sweeping views from an upper floor to a first floor. Last night I entered just such a home in a relatively new, modestly affluent, residential neighborhood in Richardson, Texas. From the outside I'd never have guessed what the entry looked like.
The room you first enter, I guess you have to call it either an entry room or a foyer, was expansive. To the right was a winding staircase leading to the 3 bedroom, 2 bath second story. The master bedroom, office, dining room, living room, kitchen, etc., were all on the first floor. I'd say the home was at least 4000 square feet. Maybe 4500. Everything was wide open and large beyond what I expected.
The point is, if you were upstairs and there was a crash at the door, anyone entering that foyer is in your sweeping field of fire. The master bedroom being downstairs, and actually nobody living upstairs (a case of conspicuous consumption, I guess), the situation would not actually present itself. But it could.
Because it could happen I apologize for my blatant assumption that none of us find ourselves in such situations. If that house had it, others in that neighborhood must have similar construction. Of all the affluent homes I have ever entered that were not actually "mansions", meaning double digit numbers of rooms with dramatic staircases, etc., I have never seen a home so constructed. Very pretty - and a special situation for home defense plans if I ever saw one!
***GRJ***
cyphertext
US Veteran
I don't know anyone who carries a long gun around their house, so if they are relying on an AR for home defense, then they need to provide the layers to make time to get ready.
As far as my own home, you are not on my property without me knowing about it. Again, multiple layers, with 105 lbs of dog being one of the best ones.
Waywatcher
Member
Good grief.
What if a robber sets up and waits outside and snipes you in the face when you go to get the mail or walk the dog. Or what if he shoots you in the back when you're loading your groceries into your car, and then takes your keys and license to loot your house.
There's no possible way to be ready for every single imagined scenario. Preparing for likely scenarios is one thing. Imagining unlikely scenarios and applying the thought process to your home defense plan is ludicrous. If you honestly think the time it will take you to make a secondary long arm ready is going to get you killed in your own house, you better start wearing body armor to the grocery store.
Scenarios abound - we can all think them up. My response for home defense to this question is PAY ATTENTION! Focus! You can't see every threat but if you're looking for threats you will look alert and be less of a target just from the outset.
However, the grocery store parking lot is outside of the home defense discussion. Stay alert and you'll be well served.
However, insofar as someone lying in wait outside your front door, unless you have serious enemies, or you look like a great target with a predictable schedule, nobody is lurking outside your front door. What if you're sick in bed? Some crook is going to wait all day in vain? I don't think so. But, let's make assumptions.
Assuming there is a lurker, when you opened your door, did you look first? Or just walk out without a care in the world?
Outside your front door - is it easy to hide or difficult? At some point every home has blind corners - are they close to the door or far away? When you step out, do you scan your area? Do you continue the scan until you are satisfied there are no lurkers? And nobody 25 feet away or 50 feet, in the street, just watching?
Ask yourself this question - if you're concerned enough with home defense to be armed indoors, then (1) are you armed out of the house and (2) does your concern with your personal safety keep you vigilant at all times? Because if you're only alert in the house you're a dead duck on the street. Vigilance, watching, the world is a dangerous place - you don't have to have your AR at the ready - and you don't have to become paranoid - but you should try to never lose focus.
Learn the color codes - let's be careful out there:
States of Awareness, the Cooper Color Codes
***GRJ***
JaPes
Member
Hermetically sealed up-armored human sized hamster ball with O2 canisters & CO2 scrubbers stocked with chem lights, MRE's and a water filtration system...with gun ports. It should survive floods, tornadoes, chemical attacks, WROL, TETOWAKI, etc...
Seriously... we do what we can do. For some it's a pistol for others it's a Carl Gustav recoil less rifle.
Badquaker
Member
My ARs are not my primary choice for home protection. They are locked up in the safe usually. I do keep a couple of handguns stashed around the house. If I have expended 6 full mags of 45acp, and the situation is still not under control, weapon choice will not be my biggest problem.
tacreload
Member
Badquaker I believe has pretty much summed everything up here.Rastoff wanted to get everyone thinking and give their input.He certainly has accomplished that.The scenarios are endless but we all need to think about how we will react and I believe we all have done that.No doubt we need to worry where those rounds will go whether or not they hit their intended target.If we all think about it now,before it happens we will all be better prepared for when and if it does.Keep 'em coming Rastoff.
Armybrat
Member
My S&W Sport AR is in the safe.
If one of the 47%ers ever breaks into my home while I'm present, then he/she (I don't discriminate) will probably first be faced with my Ruger LCP which is in the pocket of the shorts I wear during the waking hours. Then given enough time, the Winchester Defender 12Ga. (8 shot) pump will be bought into action next.
Nighttime intrusions will first be met first with the S&W J-Frame Bodyguard Airweight .38 Special in my bedside table, followed up with the aforementioned Winchester Defender.
If the zombie apocalypse actually occurs, then the Sport will be at the ready, as will the custom built Mauser .30-06 and Ruger 10/22.
Failing all that, I have a really ugly facial expression to throw into the fray.
If one of the 47%ers ever breaks into my home while I'm present, then he/she (I don't discriminate) will probably first be faced with my Ruger LCP which is in the pocket of the shorts I wear during the waking hours. Then given enough time, the Winchester Defender 12Ga. (8 shot) pump will be bought into action next.
Nighttime intrusions will first be met first with the S&W J-Frame Bodyguard Airweight .38 Special in my bedside table, followed up with the aforementioned Winchester Defender.
If the zombie apocalypse actually occurs, then the Sport will be at the ready, as will the custom built Mauser .30-06 and Ruger 10/22.
Failing all that, I have a really ugly facial expression to throw into the fray.
I think the AR-15 is sort of overblown as the "best HD weapon" no matter how much folks wish it to be true.
I really think a 12 gauge shotgun, pick you flavor, with a good small buckshot load is as good as it gets for civillian HD for a number of reasons. The AR-15 has it's place, and that's OUTSIDE when massive firepower and long range is needed. For home defense, it's simply the wrong tool for the job IMHO.
I also have a .357 magnum as my HD pistol. Reliable, enough capacity for the job at hand (if not I'll go for the 12 gauge) and nobody can argue that .357 mag isn't effective for defense! Not in this universe anyway!
I really think a 12 gauge shotgun, pick you flavor, with a good small buckshot load is as good as it gets for civillian HD for a number of reasons. The AR-15 has it's place, and that's OUTSIDE when massive firepower and long range is needed. For home defense, it's simply the wrong tool for the job IMHO.
I also have a .357 magnum as my HD pistol. Reliable, enough capacity for the job at hand (if not I'll go for the 12 gauge) and nobody can argue that .357 mag isn't effective for defense! Not in this universe anyway!
OP
Rastoff
US Veteran
I don't think that has been stated in this thread. In fact, the conversation has been relatively neutral.
I haven't quantified it, but we seem to have a good spread of what people like. Some like handguns, some like shotguns and some like the AR (or rifle, but AR was the title of the thread).
This has indeed sparked more discussion. I'm going to look into the idea of penetration further myself. The tests I've seen and done myself show that .223Rem penetrates more than 9mm. Even so, there have been several posts saying the opposite is true. I always thought a shotgun was not as loud as the .223, but there is some evidence that I was wrong in that assessment.
All in all, a good discussion.
