Texas DPS ditches M&P and returns to SIG

Yeah, this happens more often than enthusiasts and 'brand aficionados' might care to realize.

I can think of a couple of other brands (meaning not S&W) where major state or county agencies had problems with components in new guns, and the gun companies had to scramble to replace major components in just a couple hundred guns from a production run, or in a couple thousand guns, if they wanted the agencies to stay with their products. These sort of things don't always make the news or find their way into public attention. ;)

Sometimes it doesn't serve the interests of either the agency or the gun company to air out such things in the press. Sometimes it happens, though.
 
Having witnessed many handgun changeovers in 45 years, I have seen the problems with failures pop up in all manner and brands of guns when the manufacturer pushes production numbers to meet large orders while trying to capture the LE or military market share. I saw it happen with the Model 66 in the 70's and with the Model 669/6906 in the 80's, the Beretta 92 in the 90's, and now with Sigs and M&P's. And there are many others. I recently attended an instructor course with the chief instructor of a large southern department that carries the M&P 45 and they experienced many failures. The good news is that S&W sent people down there and fixed or replaced all the guns with the problem and I see that Sig is doing the same in the California sheriff's office. No firearm manufacturer can afford to have that kind of problem hanging out there. I know from my time working with Texas Rangers a few years ago that they are very fond of their Sigs and I believe the impetus for changing to the M&P was to migrate back to the 9mm due to the cost of ammo and training issues experienced while training new recruits on heavier calibers. This is not a new concept and the FBI seems to be trending that way. Some might argue that the DPS decision was made to change guns and caliber for the wrong reasons which may bring some heat to the argument. Officers can be very emotional, and rightfully so, when the bottom line dictates choice of life-safety things like what kind of pistol they carry or what kind of car they drive. I do not, however, know of an incident in recent memory where an officer lost his or her life due to a pistol failure, but if someone knows of such an occurrence I would like to know about it.
 
I have an early M&P 40 made in 2006 that I have put 15,000+ rounds down it. To date I have hade three mechanical failures plus a FTE. The mechanical failures were:
1. Roll pin in front of the trigger guard worked out about .2". It made a great place to index my finger when it was not on the trigger but it started to wear on the holster so it went back to S&W, no recurrence in 10,000 rounds.
2. Broken captive recoil spring, it was still usable but S&W sent a replacement.
3. Mag dropout. Could have been due to the early model (S/N MPAxxxx) or it could have been caused by wear as I do lots of mag changes due to practice and local competitions.

The FTE was caused by me doing a torture test of not cleaning the gun for 1,000 rounds until a failure (took 20 weeks). The actual issue was carbon build up on the ejector. I repeated this test but cleaned the ejector at 800 rounds but quit after 1,600 rounds (over 26 weeks) with no FTE as the purpose was to find the weak link on this gun as a carry gun.

Overall I have trusted my life to this M&P or a matching M&P 40C for the last eight years.

I have seen major failures happening on Glocks (springs and several front sights falling out), Sigs (mag baseplate failure spilling rounds all over the floor), M&Ps (mag dropouts) and multiple make 1911s having different failures.

All makes will have failures and the big boys will take action to identify the sources of those problems and take actions to correct them.

By the way besides M&Ps I also own 1911s, a Glock 19 and a Sig 226 which I will start using in local league matches this week for more practice so I not a M&P or else person.
 
I am curious that if the reason for changing to 9mm was indeed the impetus (so much more going on though I suspect) then why didn't they just transition to the same pistol in 9mm???...no changing of much anything to carry the same pistol in a different caliber...

I don't believe there was anything mysterious and suspect S&W made the Texas DPS a better deal then SIG wanted to...

Bill
 
eegore said:
Seems I remember the P226 had some cracked slides years ago?
Click to expand...

Yes that was during the early rounds of testing the U.S. military did for a new service pistol in the mid 1980s on the alloy framed guns. Sig corrected the problem. Along with the Beretta 92 the Sig P226 was selected for use. The gun has had no significant problem with cracked frames since then. But this being the internet things live on, and on, and...

tipoc
 
I think the FBI had some with cracked slides too, when the issued some # of them in the ... late 80s or early 90s.
 
Frames, there were cracked frames in the earlier 226s and 220s. SIG fixed them too.
Silversport : As far as I know the M&P is cheaper and holds more ammo than the SIG P226. And I wouldn't doubt S&W took a page out of Glocks book on how to sell pistols either.
Dale
 
TXDPS should just stay with their trusty Sigs, hell they work very well. To me the choice of 9x19 over .357 Sig seems like a step backwards. The .357 Sig round has a very good street record with agencies that use it. Several federal & state agencies use it & we don't see the FTS horror stories with the .357 vs. the 9x19. Ironically their neighbors, the NMSP have been using .357 M&P's for years.

The switching over requires new holsters & mag pouches. M&P mags are fatter than Sig's. TDPS wears corfam & that is the most expensive duty gear around. That add$ up really quick.
 
Badkarma 1 said:
Frames, there were cracked frames in the earlier 226s and 220s. SIG fixed them too.
Silversport : As far as I know the M&P is cheaper and holds more ammo than the SIG P226. And I wouldn't doubt S&W took a page out of Glocks book on how to sell pistols either.
Dale
Click to expand...

...but that's my point...if you are just trying to be "fiscally responsible" (words that shouldn't really be used when buying something to protect life IMO) why not go with SIG P226s in 9mm???...no changing of holster, no changing of magazine pouches and no changing the manual of arms...

...however, as I suspect, it is about money only...S&W made them a better deal...

Bill
 
Silversport, you nailed it. Remember NMSP used to issue gen3 Glock 31's but went to M&P's in .357 because they had removable back straps & ambi mag releases etc which = new duty gear. A couple of years later Glock comes out with the gen4's with the same features. I bet the brass in NM were kicking themselves and realized they jumped the gun a bit since the gen4's don't require new holsters.

As far as well endowed ladies to pitch the product, well that's all good! I don't mind the presentation..... :cool:
 
Funny side note: AZDPS upgraded their aging Sig P226/229's in .40 to the P226R/2229R thinking they can use existing gear unless a weapon light was used....well, they were right for the mag pouches & then discovered the issued Safariland SLS didn't fit the railed Sigs....whruua whroow! So they ended up buying new holsters anyway. If an officer wants a weaponlight, they have to buy their own holster.
 
PR24 said:
Funny side note: AZDPS upgraded their aging Sig P226/229's in .40 to the P226R/2229R thinking they can use existing gear unless a weapon light was used....well, they were right for the mag pouches & then discovered the issued Safariland SLS didn't fit the railed Sigs....whruua whroow! So they ended up buying new holsters anyway. If an officer wants a weaponlight, they have to buy their own holster.
Click to expand...

Isn't it pathetic that the "firearms committee," the "armorer," or whatever expert they had at that agency either did not know, or did not ask about an issue that almost any real "gun person" would know? This is further proof that most of these folks at this and other agencies are exceedingly unsophisticated when it comes to guns, ammo and related equipment.

As told to me by someone who worked for SIG at the time, this lack of sophistication is the reason the name ".357 SIG" was chosen for a 9mm or .355 cartridge - the idea that such folks on "weapons committees" or the administrators would believe they were getting the .357 Magnum in an auto when in fact it was really just a 9mm +P+ in a fat case which caused the magazine to hold much less ammo than the 9mm +P+. Not to mention, the cartridge seems to be MUCH harder on the weapons than the 9mm +P+. By the way, the cartridge has its fans, and I am fine with that. It is exceedingly accurate, but so is the 9mm+P+. And, if you doubt that the .357 SIG is really just a 9mm +P+, before you make judgments, please compare the ballistics of the Winchester 9mm +P+ 127 grain load to the original, I believe Federal brand, .357 SIG 125 grain load. I doubt anyone on the receiving end could tell the difference! In addition, the cost of the .357 SIG is not "taxpayer friendly," while the 9mm +P+ is just plain economical in comparison. The 9mm also allows higher capacity and faster follow-up shots, and it seems to be more user-friendly for certain officers.
 
Last edited:
well...as someone who was around when the 357 SIG was developed by SIGARMS and Federal, the name was to get the hold out law enforcement agencies to give up their 357 Magnum revolvers and get into semi autos...

the 357 SIG has/had similar performance to the 357 Magnum in the popular configuration for law enforcement...125GR cartridge with fps comparable to that out of a four inch barrel...SIG and Federal hit the nail on the head...

to say the 357 SIG is just a 9mm +P+ is to miss what it is...usually, 357 SIG is about 75-100 fps faster and at least Federal and Speer make a different designed bullet just for this cartridge...dished instead of just topping the cartridge with a 9mm bullet...

you can like it, hate it or feel indifferent about the 357 SIG but it fills the niche that it was designed for and there have been many that actually use it that sing it's praises while few that use it that dislike it...

Bill
 
I attended a demonstration where we were encouraged to bring whatever cartridges we wished to compare to each other...357 SIG was brand new and I brought my favorite at the time Winchester Ranger 127 +P+as well as a second choice Illinois State Police 115GR +P+ and the 357 SIG performed better through the test media (which was the FBI protocol).

The ISP 115GR +P+ Silvertip was clearly outmatched but the Ranger (still black colored at this time) did very well...I recall thinking we had made a good choice in the 127 +P+ for 9mm but I also was quite impressed with the 125GR Speer Gold Dot that was just being introduced...

At the demonstration, the 357 SIG was consistently 100+fps faster than the 127GR +P+ 9mm and stayed together better through vehicle glass and other similar hard materials...

Is 357 SIG the hammer of Thor???...I don't know...is it weak or just a 9mm +P+ ???...I don't think so...would I feel under gunned armed with either choice...nope.

Bill
 
Last edited:
I thought that this thread would have died by now......Whatever they feel comfortable with is fine with me.......I live in Texas.......
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

M
Lots of LE going w/ the M&P
Replies
5
Views
915
Beju
B
Don 73
Looking HARD at a 2.0 10mm
Replies
16
Views
329
Don 73
Don 73
D
SHIELD X Series??
Replies
8
Views
383
Beju
B
L
Which adaptor for the Green Viridian on the M and P 22 mag and 5.7
Replies
0
Views
116
Law-dog
L
D
  • Locked
Expired/Withdrawn SIG SAUER P320/P250 magazines or trade for S&W, Ruger mags
Replies
1
Views
228
Dave686
D

Latest posts

Back
Top