HayesGreener
US Veteran
Does that mean S&W also used cocktail parties and scantily clad large breasted women?
Texas DPS ditches M&P and returns to SIG
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silversport
Member
...but that's my point...if you are just trying to be "fiscally responsible" (words that shouldn't really be used when buying something to protect life IMO) why not go with SIG P226s in 9mm???...no changing of holster, no changing of magazine pouches and no changing the manual of arms...
...however, as I suspect, it is about money only...S&W made them a better deal...
Bill
Silversport, you nailed it. Remember NMSP used to issue gen3 Glock 31's but went to M&P's in .357 because they had removable back straps & ambi mag releases etc which = new duty gear. A couple of years later Glock comes out with the gen4's with the same features. I bet the brass in NM were kicking themselves and realized they jumped the gun a bit since the gen4's don't require new holsters.
As far as well endowed ladies to pitch the product, well that's all good! I don't mind the presentation.....
As far as well endowed ladies to pitch the product, well that's all good! I don't mind the presentation.....
Funny side note: AZDPS upgraded their aging Sig P226/229's in .40 to the P226R/2229R thinking they can use existing gear unless a weapon light was used....well, they were right for the mag pouches & then discovered the issued Safariland SLS didn't fit the railed Sigs....whruua whroow! So they ended up buying new holsters anyway. If an officer wants a weaponlight, they have to buy their own holster.
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Isn't it pathetic that the "firearms committee," the "armorer," or whatever expert they had at that agency either did not know, or did not ask about an issue that almost any real "gun person" would know? This is further proof that most of these folks at this and other agencies are exceedingly unsophisticated when it comes to guns, ammo and related equipment.
As told to me by someone who worked for SIG at the time, this lack of sophistication is the reason the name ".357 SIG" was chosen for a 9mm or .355 cartridge - the idea that such folks on "weapons committees" or the administrators would believe they were getting the .357 Magnum in an auto when in fact it was really just a 9mm +P+ in a fat case which caused the magazine to hold much less ammo than the 9mm +P+. Not to mention, the cartridge seems to be MUCH harder on the weapons than the 9mm +P+. By the way, the cartridge has its fans, and I am fine with that. It is exceedingly accurate, but so is the 9mm+P+. And, if you doubt that the .357 SIG is really just a 9mm +P+, before you make judgments, please compare the ballistics of the Winchester 9mm +P+ 127 grain load to the original, I believe Federal brand, .357 SIG 125 grain load. I doubt anyone on the receiving end could tell the difference! In addition, the cost of the .357 SIG is not "taxpayer friendly," while the 9mm +P+ is just plain economical in comparison. The 9mm also allows higher capacity and faster follow-up shots, and it seems to be more user-friendly for certain officers.
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silversport
Member
well...as someone who was around when the 357 SIG was developed by SIGARMS and Federal, the name was to get the hold out law enforcement agencies to give up their 357 Magnum revolvers and get into semi autos...
the 357 SIG has/had similar performance to the 357 Magnum in the popular configuration for law enforcement...125GR cartridge with fps comparable to that out of a four inch barrel...SIG and Federal hit the nail on the head...
to say the 357 SIG is just a 9mm +P+ is to miss what it is...usually, 357 SIG is about 75-100 fps faster and at least Federal and Speer make a different designed bullet just for this cartridge...dished instead of just topping the cartridge with a 9mm bullet...
you can like it, hate it or feel indifferent about the 357 SIG but it fills the niche that it was designed for and there have been many that actually use it that sing it's praises while few that use it that dislike it...
Bill
the 357 SIG has/had similar performance to the 357 Magnum in the popular configuration for law enforcement...125GR cartridge with fps comparable to that out of a four inch barrel...SIG and Federal hit the nail on the head...
to say the 357 SIG is just a 9mm +P+ is to miss what it is...usually, 357 SIG is about 75-100 fps faster and at least Federal and Speer make a different designed bullet just for this cartridge...dished instead of just topping the cartridge with a 9mm bullet...
you can like it, hate it or feel indifferent about the 357 SIG but it fills the niche that it was designed for and there have been many that actually use it that sing it's praises while few that use it that dislike it...
Bill
silversport
Member
I attended a demonstration where we were encouraged to bring whatever cartridges we wished to compare to each other...357 SIG was brand new and I brought my favorite at the time Winchester Ranger 127 +P+as well as a second choice Illinois State Police 115GR +P+ and the 357 SIG performed better through the test media (which was the FBI protocol).
The ISP 115GR +P+ Silvertip was clearly outmatched but the Ranger (still black colored at this time) did very well...I recall thinking we had made a good choice in the 127 +P+ for 9mm but I also was quite impressed with the 125GR Speer Gold Dot that was just being introduced...
At the demonstration, the 357 SIG was consistently 100+fps faster than the 127GR +P+ 9mm and stayed together better through vehicle glass and other similar hard materials...
Is 357 SIG the hammer of Thor???...I don't know...is it weak or just a 9mm +P+ ???...I don't think so...would I feel under gunned armed with either choice...nope.
Bill
The ISP 115GR +P+ Silvertip was clearly outmatched but the Ranger (still black colored at this time) did very well...I recall thinking we had made a good choice in the 127 +P+ for 9mm but I also was quite impressed with the 125GR Speer Gold Dot that was just being introduced...
At the demonstration, the 357 SIG was consistently 100+fps faster than the 127GR +P+ 9mm and stayed together better through vehicle glass and other similar hard materials...
Is 357 SIG the hammer of Thor???...I don't know...is it weak or just a 9mm +P+ ???...I don't think so...would I feel under gunned armed with either choice...nope.
Bill
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Reggie Dunlop
Member
The use of SCLBWs is unregulated in the LEO procurement world.
When properly deployed will usually result in a win for your side.
If that's the case I'll be on the phone with S&W in the morning.
leejack
Member
Too much hype about what LE agencies use.
20+ in the military and I don't own an M9 either.
I get what I want, no politics, no kool-aid and no training problems.
20+ in the military and I don't own an M9 either.
I get what I want, no politics, no kool-aid and no training problems.
Is it too late to toss in the obligatory "They should have specified 3rd generation semi autos in .45ACP" comment?
OP
Badkarma 1
US Veteran
You mean like the 3rd G folks?
OP
Badkarma 1
US Veteran
Funny, I could have sworn you have a couple of posts over there too?
Dale
I own a bunch of them but don't spend all my time running down other people's choices (ie M&P's) in guns.
Seems we've seen this before
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1980-present/354030-bashing-crying-whining.html
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OP
Badkarma 1
US Veteran
I own a bunch of them but don't spend all my time running down other people's choices (ie M&P's) in guns.
Seems we've seen this before
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1980-present/354030-bashing-crying-whining.html
Funny I don't seem to recall runnin down anybody choosin and M&P, just offered options and opinions.
You servin cheese with your whine?
marathonrunner
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Yikes! I love my Compact 9 but has Glock Pistols ever had these same problems? It seems Glock pistols are not a pretty but they got a proven design where MP is still working on quality control. Can anybody name a law enforcement agency that bought Glock pistols and then had to dump them for FTF and FTE?
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marathonrunner
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reloads
I don't think this is a fair comparison. The MP Compact 9 and Shield are relatively new out of the box and having issues. Where the Glocks were 12 years old, of course I am sure after 12 years extractors can wear out. reloads were used, and lead bullets which don't work well in polygonal rifling. I suspect the Glock 21 were blowing up because of the reloads being improperly reloaded. I never heard of a gun blowing up unless it had a double charge or hot load.
I still love my Smith and Wesson 9c but plan on holding off on purchasing a second one until I see how this pans out.
I don't think this is a fair comparison. The MP Compact 9 and Shield are relatively new out of the box and having issues. Where the Glocks were 12 years old, of course I am sure after 12 years extractors can wear out. reloads were used, and lead bullets which don't work well in polygonal rifling. I suspect the Glock 21 were blowing up because of the reloads being improperly reloaded. I never heard of a gun blowing up unless it had a double charge or hot load.
I still love my Smith and Wesson 9c but plan on holding off on purchasing a second one until I see how this pans out.
Doug M.
Member
ANY manufacturer can have design and QC problems, and they do. They also tend to show up in hard use settings first. Patrol officers don't shoot near as much as they should once leaving the academy, so the problems tend to show first in the academy setting and among officers/units that train more. The issues with some Glock models are well known in LE. Many agencies have had really nasty encounters with Glock over this stuff, and I know officers who have been involved as trainers in dealing with this crud.
Back to the topic: I think there is something not truly related to the pistols going on at DPS. All it takes is one person in the right person who has an agenda, and things get weird. Seen it first hand.
OP
Badkarma 1
US Veteran
Yup! NYPD has a rash of Stage 3 malfunctions back in the 90s and had to threaten to dump Glock and go with Ruger to get Gkock to respond. And go back to '09 when the 4 Gen premiered there was everything short of a witch hunt going on there!
Thing to remember here though is if you buy an M&P and it isn't right, call Smith and they should take care of you.
Dale
DocSunShine
Member
Glocks as much as I like them have had their fair share of issues... The NYPD stage 3 malfunctions, a rash if .40 kabooms, brass to the face/erratic ejection (watch how ugly those extractions are in slow motion) of 9mm Gen4s that occasionally causes a stove pipes, .40 weapon light issues, earlier models had frames cracking mostly on .40s... In reality some Gen4s still suffer from BTF/EE to this day (Apex extractors fix the issue however) and Glock has told many owners to kick rocks over the issue as well (Glock does not offer a lifetime warranty like Smith does)...
Don't get me wrong I like Glock but they've had their fair share of issues as a company, my Gen3 has been perfect which is the experience of MOST Glock owners just like it's the experience of MOST M&P owners.
silversport
Member
...and like so many things... w a y overblown on the error-net...
Bill
Bill
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