AR as a home defense gun?

[JohnSW]

Still - when seconds count - they're only minutes away.Being fewer minutes away than other locales, doesn't necessarily make it better. Maybe you're warm and dead, rather than cold and dead. Still dead, though.

Nobody suggested not defending yourself. When the police are two minutes away, you have the option of taking an armed-defensive position, rather than going on the attack.

 

[bhayles]

Nobody suggested not defending yourself. When the police are two minutes away, you have the option of taking an armed-defensive position, rather than going on the attack.

The cops will be drawing chalklines around dead bodies. The average violent encounter in the home lasts about 30 seconds.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

If you are in the presence of an identified threat why are you standing flat footed with your gun down, not covering the threat before it initiates the move in your direction?

There is a reason why rifles/carbines are replacing shotguns in patrol car racks. And yes I am quite familiar with the 870 riot shotgun have been the primary instructor on that particular device for the 7 years prior to retirement. BTW my HD shotgun does not have a C/IC choke and I do know the pattern size/POI with it from 5 to 50 yards with my chosen load.

One more BTW, on my AR it is 2.5" from the top of the front sight post to the center of the bore.

And that is? Would it be an overriding factor for a homeowner and home defense?

 

[jdh]

With a proper ammo choice 223 penetrates less in common residential or office construction materials than does 12 gauge buckshot.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Curious what the police are using?

 

[Waywatcher]

With a proper ammo choice 223 penetrates less in common residential or office construction materials than does 12 gauge buckshot.

I suppose if you're comparing OO buck to a 50 grain JHP that would be true. Sub in #4 buck and compare it to 62 grain M855 and suddenly the shotgun penetrates less.

Any load worth using against a human adversary is going to penetrate stuff.

Shotguns offer up-front-power-right-now that a semi auto carbine can never duplicate in one shot. Follow up shots lean the scale towards favoring a carbine.

 

[jdh]

Hence the caveat "with proper ammo choice".

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Any load worth using against a human adversary is going to penetrate stuff.

I think so.

Of course it's prudent to be thoughtful of what's beyond the target... but if a bad guy breaks into my home thinking he's safe wearing a USA Gypsum vest he's in for a surprise.

 

[Dash50]

There has been a number of tests proving that a handgun round will penetrate more layers of sheetrock than a .223 HP will. why do you think the majority of SWAT/entry teams have switched from SMG's to AR's? As far as shotguns go, I personally witnessed a man get shot in the shoulder with a load of #6 shot while walking a pheasant line. The distance was about 20 yards and he was wearing thermals, a hoodie, a BDU jacket and a orange safety vest. It shredded the vest and the jacket. But most of the pellets stayed in the hoodie and the thermals. He had 6 pellets in his shoulder and 2 in his upper arm. He went to his doctor later that day and was fixed up fine. That is not the kind of protection power I want when it means keeping my wife and myself alive. I still remember the firing range Gunny saying "a pistol is what you use to fight with until you get to your rifle".
I'm embarrassed to admit that I had a ND while clearing a carry 1911. The 230FMJ went through the front and rear of a dresser drawer, through the back of the dresser, through 2 layers of sheetrock and a hollow core door. Then it passed through my back bathroom and through 2 more layers of sheetrock into the closet that contained my HVAC unit and my water heater (luckily it didn't hit anything expensive). Then it went through 2 more layers of sheetrock and ended up on the floor in my front bathroom. So much for even a subsonic pistol round not over penetrating.

 

[cyphertext]

As far as shotguns go, I personally witnessed a man get shot in the shoulder with a load of #6 shot while walking a pheasant line. The distance was about 30 yards and he was wearing thermals, a hoodie, a BDU jacket and a orange safety vest. It shredded the vest and the jacket. But most of the pellets stayed in the hoodie and the thermals. He had 6 pellets in his shoulder and 2 in his upper arm. He went to his doctor later that day and was fixed up fine. That is not the kind of protection power I want when it means keeping my wife and myself alive. I still remember the firing range Gunny saying "a pistol is what you use to fight with until you get to your rifle"

That is why birdshot is for birds, not two legged vermin.

 

[tacreload]

That is why birdshot is for birds, not two legged vermin.

But at rooms length with the same load,would the results be somewhat different?

 

[cyphertext]

But at rooms length with the same load,would the results be somewhat different?

Viper MD, another user on this board, has seen real world results with various sizes of shot. I'll let him comment, if he sees this thread. However, for more reliable penetration, I stay with 00 buck.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Birdshot at 30yds.... this is in any way something to consider regarding home defense? I suppose if you were in a Alfred Hitchcock movie....

 

[tacreload]

Birdshot at 30yds.... this is in any way something to consider regarding home defense? I suppose if you were in a Alfred Hitchcock movie....

That's what I was thinking.30 yards and all that clothing versus 7 yards without the extra layers.I would think birdshot at 7-10 yards would discourage most.Inside most homes I would think even closer range.Just curious for other's thoughts.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Handguns and long guns both have a potential place in home defense, and *I* am reading this thread as specifically discussing long gun selection , so I'm not discussing handguns.

*I* also interpeded this thread as specifically IF an AR-15 could have viable usage, so I won't go too far into what is the "Best-est" .

(Presuming 5.56 cal , and (the prudent) usage of M193 type 55gr ammo ( or lesser ). A whole bunch of testing shows that M193 penetrates LESS * in common interior wall construction * than most common SD/ Duty handgun ammo. And I have never seen any publish ( or leaked from credible sources ) testing showing the reverse. Yes , it's counter intuitive , and flys in the face of a couple decades of common assumptions, but it is what it is. So no reason too avoid an AR on that count.

We can argue till the cows come how about how many angels can dance on each pellet of buckshot , but M193 will have close range stopping power at least as much as typical handgun, so no reason to avoid an AR on that count.

An AR of 16-18in configuration ( give or take length of flash hider ) is similar or shorter than common SD/ Duty shotguns, so no reason to avoid an AR on that count.

Admittedly , the main advantages of an AR from Millitary or LE viewpoint ( long-ish range , high capacity will *usually* not be required in Home Defense , but having capabilities not called into play doesn't detract anything either.

Biggfoot's Bottom Line = If you LIKE an AR-15 , shoot it particularily well , or it's your only suitable long gun , by all means use one.

[ It's not my personal first choice, nor my default recomendation to newbies, but I won't often try to talk anyone out of one. I'm me , you're you , YMMV. ]

 

[Dash50]

I originally posted 30 yards. But as I added a story of my own negligence, the more I thought about it, 90 feet was a bit much (it happened in the 70's) 20 yards is more like it. Sorry.

 

[Biggfoot44]

The shotgun ammo issue won't die.

I have an inherited faith in pattern density.

I also frequently get flack for liking various handgun/ rifle rounds that work well in real life , but don't penetrate to some arbitrary distance in testing.

Even with all that , birdshot was waaaay too little penetration. 1-2inches of penetration at 5-ish yards is grossly inadaquate. If "close" means 5-7 inches that would change the situation, but that's not a realistic parameter.

For the proverbial * ok for lightly clothed across a room , but marginal for multi layer winter clothes or longer distances * , that is describing #4 Buckshot .

Apply your best judgement to your personal situation to choose between 4B thru 000B . I will point out that tight patterning , low recoil buckshot is commonly found in 00B , and rare in any other size.

A number of people I respect with extensive personal real world experience swear by Foster style 12ga slugs for all defensive/ duty usage, and I'm not going to try to tell them they're wrong.

 

[Dash50]

That's what I was thinking.30 yards and all that clothing versus 7 yards without the extra layers.I would think birdshot at 7-10 yards would discourage most.Inside most homes I would think even closer range.Just curious for other's thoughts.

I can see your point. In my house, the plan for a night time "boogie man" surprise is to take up a defensive posture in my master bedroom with my wife by my side (no children). The distance from the point at which all three entry doors would converge for them to come down the hall is 40 feet from my bedroom. That's a little further than I would feel comfortable with bird shot.

 

[Rastoff]

The longest possible shot inside my house is 20 feet. That particular distance is an extremely unlikely situation. So, anything that will be effective at 15 feet or so will do just fine.

I'm a regular Trap shooter. Therefore, I have plenty of bird/target sized shot shells. Even at that short a distance, I wouldn't trust them to effectively stop a threat. You see, I don't want to discourage the invader, I want him stopped.

 

[mc5aw]

30 yards is a third of a football field or decent outdoor range. That's a long way to be defending oneself from a violent adversary unless it's a large carnivorous creature. For HD/SD purposes, 10'-30' is a much more practical distance to practice within.