Real world effectiveness of 642

[vito]

I carry a 642 with Hornady Critical Defense +p ammo, and fortunately have never had to fire it in my own defense. I know that many on this forum, and elsewhere, carry this or similar j-frames and assume that if that emergency ever arises, this round from this gun will be sufficient to stop the threat. But do we have any real world evidence that can be shared that demonstrates the effectiveness of a 642 firing 38 ammo and saving the day?

 

[ohioseabee]

bullet placement is the key factor. Center mass is your mantra. double taps are also helpful.

 

[Fastbolt]

There's a reason the little 5-shot .38 snubs are still heavily marketed to LE, you know.

Also why some major agencies still issue (or at least authorize) them as secondary & off-duty weapons.

I attended a couple of 1-day in-service training classes a couple years ago. One was a traveling FBI program LEOKA class (Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted) and the other was also a field class, involving street survival tactics. Both classes included a number of examples of how small 5-shot snubs (and some .380's) had been effectively employed to save the lives of cops. The little snubs are still doing the job.

NYPD requested Speer to develop what became the 135gr +P Short Barrel load some years ago, and they wouldn't have gone to that trouble if the little 5-shot snub wasn't still a viable defensive weapon in certain roles. Winchester also developed the PDX1 130gr +P (same thing as the RA38B in 50-rd Ranger boxes) in recent years.

Unfortunately, the very attributes that make the venerable J-frames so attractive and useful as lawfully carried defensive handguns, also tend to make them more difficult to shoot for many folks. Even accomplished shooters of larger revolvers generally have to work to master the little snubs, and maintain their skills with them.

When I returned to carrying a J-frame after a hiatus of a few years (while carrying a 3913), I ordered my first Airweight. It was just after the 642-1's rated for a steady diet of +P had been released. Previously, I'd only owned steel J's (M36 3" HB & a 649 Bodyguard), and the Airweight was something new to me.

I ended up going through a couple of cases of ammo during the first several months of owning that 642. I needed to not only dust off my neglected DA revolver skills, but adjust to increased felt recoil of using +p loads in the little Airweight.

I was also lucky that I had the opportunity to practice with one of the early stainless 640 .38's (the version marked in the frame window as being rated for +P+), which was available in the training inventory. I used it to help burn up some cases of W-W .38 Spl 110gr +P+ loads that had been taken out-of-service. Those +P+ loads made for some snappy shooting, even in the all-steel 640, and it made shooting +P in my Airweight seem more pleasant.

Nowadays I presently own 7 J-frames. All but 2 of them are aluminum-framed, and they include a pair of 642-1's and M&P 340's.

Even after many cases of ammo being run through my growing number of J's since that first 642-1, I still make sure I keep my skills well practiced with them. Shooting is a perishable skill, after all, and the little J's usually require some dedicated practice in order to stay sharp with them.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Back in the day, the 38 Special, like the 9mm, was a Fifty-Percenter. With improved loads, hollow points that work, etc., the 38 Special and the 9mm have both come up in the world.

No handgun will reliably drop a determined adversary with one well-placed shot.

Remember the Texas Ranger's response to the lady who saw him at a social event with his 1911 and inquired whether he was "expecting trouble." The Ranger responded, "No ma'am. If I were expecting trouble, I would have brought my rifle."

Personally, I would not rely on a 5 shot 38 Special revolver as my primary arm, but if I had no choice, I would make sure it was loaded with either the Winchester "FBI Load" or the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel load.

 

[Arik]

I carry a 642 with Hornady Critical Defense +p ammo, and fortunately have never had to fire it in my own defense. I know that many on this forum, and elsewhere, carry this or similar j-frames and assume that if that emergency ever arises, this round from this gun will be sufficient to stop the threat. But do we have any real world evidence that can be shared that demonstrates the effectiveness of a 642 firing 38 ammo and saving the day?

There is plenty of evidence where a 38 "saved the day" also plenty of evidence where a 45 (or the 38) didnt. Just a few years ago in my city a guy was shot 5 times with a 38 at close range and lived to sue. There were a group of them and after the first thug was shot and the guy defending himself was out of ammo. Luckily the others fled. Could have gone the other way.

Me personally, I'd want something with more than 5 or 6 shots with faster reload.

 

[OKFC05]

It's a snub pistol, not a death ray. I saved my bacon with a 442 and speer gold dot ammo, but one of the slugs was stopped by an arm bone (broke the bone).
Know one fellow who emptied a 1911 .45 into a perp and had to club him down with the empty gun.
No guarantees, just a weapon.

 

[Hapworth]

There's plenty of real-world evidence demonstrating the effectiveness and ineffectiveness of all handguns and calibers.

Why specifically the 642 rather than any 2" snubby in .38 Special? Results should be comparable whether 642, 49, 10 or Colt Cobra.

 

[Fastbolt]

It's a snub pistol, not a death ray. ...
No guarantees, just a weapon.

Nicely stated.

I remember reading of a situation where an off-duty cop was unable to stop a couple armed robbery suspects with his 5-shot snub, and yet another situation where another off-duty cop effectively used a 5-shot snub to shoot and stop 3 armed robbery suspects.

I also remember a local shooting where a 180gr .40 JHP hit a suspect's forearm and was deflected up the arm into the shoulder capsule, where it came to rest. Intervening limbs and bones can cause bullets to do unexpected things.

Some folks focus on the limited capacity of the 5-shot snubs. Ok, rightly so, but it's not exactly like it's automatically a "deal breaker" all the time. It's not like they're going to be carried as uniformed belt guns for everyday duty use on patrol, right?

Capacity. It's one of those calculated risks, balanced against other perceived needs.

Most of the older guys I know who carry 5-shot J's usually express that they're only carrying them in anticipation of hopefully only dealing with 1-2 potential attackers. (Ditto for the itty bitty .380's that have 6-rd magazines.)

We'd all like to be able to essentially fit a "full-size fighting handgun" (revolver or pistol) into our watch pockets, but that's not going to happen.

Now, some folks might not be able consistently control and accurately shoot more than a standard pressure target wadcutter or LSWC out of their J's. Others might find themselves restricted to only using jacketed ammo in their ultra light snubs. Some may prefer the old-style 158gr LSWC/LHP +P in their non-Ti/Sc/PD snubs. Some may like using .357 Magnum in their snubs.

Rounds-on-target, in a consistently accurate, controllable and effective manner.

 

[robertrwalsh]

It will do the job, if you do yours. I used a Colt DS 2" .38 special on a charging Pit Bull. One round through the chest did the job. Shot placement is king. If you miss it doesn't matter what you are shooting, except maybe a flame thrower.

 

[snubbyfan]

bullet placement is the key factor. Center mass is your mantra. double taps are also helpful.

Yup, as long as you can put holes where they need to go.

 

[eb07]

The 38 has price itself for many years.

 

[Harrison]

There is a history of the effectiveness of the J frame 2" and K frame 2" going back several decades with the 38 spec +P FBI load. Speer markets a short barrel hollow point load developed to be effective in snubbies. There are several books out there on the subject, written by LE personnel. Crillo is one of the authors.

 

[Rpg]

J frames are more difficult to shoot well than many other handguns.

Accordingly, they require dedicated training and practice: more than is true for many other weapons.

All that said, a 38 (including target wc loads) will definitely to the job IF you hit what you shoot at.

If you can't hit reliably, with speed, more ammo or more gee whiz ammo won't help.

 

[Old cop]

I can provide a real world example, but with my issued Colt Detective Special (similar in size to the J frame) in 1974. A local liquor store was held up and I became "engaged" in a protracted gun battle w/the bad guy. The little Colt (I was a plain clothes detective at the time) took care of the problem, albeit w/more than one round center mass.

I'm a retired old guy now and no longer go in harm's way so a small .38 is all I need. Practice often and carry w/confidence.

 

[The Big D]

Will take my 'chances'...gladly!

More than 14000 days toting a gun. I daresay 10000 of those days were whilst rocking j-frame.

Yessir, did 'use' a j-frame on and off duty. Never found someone who was willing or needed to get shot but suspect my little 5-shot revolver was up to the challenge...as it were.

Rolled with one today and reinforced my opinion that a j-frame with a Remora IWB at about 1600 is just about the perfect CCW.

I like simplicity and reliability and will forever choose those values over weapon 'systems and platforms,' espoused by some.

Be safe.

 

[pineappleshooter]

Yup, as long as you can put holes where they need to go.

Not bad for a self-proclaimed gimpy injun!

 

[snubbyfan]

Not bad for a self-proclaimed gimpy injun!

Thanks, that was a stressful day at the range. I hadn't shot a gun for a couple of years since the onset on my neuropathy but I still did my dryfire practice. On the way there I was thinkin' that I'd be happy if I could still get it on the paper.
Turns out I outshot my buddy and his .45 Springfield Tactical.
Here's an interesting thought; I wonder if my neuropathy enables me to move my fingers independent of one another. Like move my trigger finger without tightening my grip, helping in accuracy? I did have to do some trigger work and there ain't no way I could shoot it with a smaller grip.
I was delighted with my shootin' that day.
I can't work a fork or write with my right hand but by golly I can still shoot my snubby.

 

[Faulkner]

Just so happens the last two homicide scenes I was on were both done with one shot from a .22 LR handgun (one a Ruger Bearcat and the other a Browning Buckmark). I suppose a .38 snub can do the job. As already noted shot placement counts.

 

[Hans Gruber]

I carry a 642 with Hornady Critical Defense +p ammo, and fortunately have never had to fire it in my own defense. I know that many on this forum, and elsewhere, carry this or similar j-frames and assume that if that emergency ever arises, this round from this gun will be sufficient to stop the threat. But do we have any real world evidence that can be shared that demonstrates the effectiveness of a 642 firing 38 ammo and saving the day?

I can tell you from personal experience that the .38 Special fired from short barrels is marginal for 250 pound "game."
If you were hunting a 250 pound Deer would you carry a M642? Doubtful.
Just as a .30-30 stoked with 150 grain JSP slugs at 2,400 fps will SLAM a deer in its tracks, it will do the same to a human.

So we KNOW the .38 Special is marginal.

Shot placement is KEY...BRAIN, or directly down the MIDLINE of the target hoping the slugs reach the Central Nervous System!
Even a hit to the BRAIN CASE with a low-powered round is no assurance of a "one-shot stop" due to the homeostatic nature of human physiology.
Piercing the skull will usually result in rapid swelling of brain tissue with a concommitant "set down" of the brain stem onto the Foramen Magnum leading to respiratory cessation...but it's NOT INSTANT!
Just ask Gabby Giffords.
People HAVE been shot "clean through" the head with a .38 special with no significant damage...I know, I was there.
The reason is because of "low power"....LOW KINETIC ENERGY!
A NON-expanding 7.62x51 NATO round through a human head will result in massive cranial fragmentation and deformation, with secondary "missile" formation that pulverizes soft tissue (dura matter) and causes INSTANT cessation of human action, with death only seconds away....that is ALL ABOUT SPEED and NOTHING about "expansion."

Slow bullets simply do not disrupt tissue beyond the "bow wave" of the bullet's track, and even such disruption as does occur is inconsequential.

This is WHY bullets moving above the SoS...regardless of "mass" are more lethal than those moving below the SoS. The farther above the SoS, the more violent the secondary effects....just look at how the 5.56x45 acts when fired from barrels longer than 16".

So the bottom line is, you carry a .38 caliber for convenience....concealability. When your time comes, do your best to shoot directly into the FACE/HEAD using the most powerful HP ammo you can find....

 

[ladder13]

I can tell you from personal experience that the .38 Special fired from short barrels is marginal for 250 pound "game."
If you were hunting a 250 pound Deer would you carry a M642? Doubtful.
Just as a .30-30 stoked with 150 grain JSP slugs at 2,400 fps will SLAM a deer in its tracks, it will do the same to a human.

So we KNOW the .38 Special is marginal.

Shot placement is KEY...BRAIN, or directly down the MIDLINE of the target hoping the slugs reach the Central Nervous System!
Even a hit to the BRAIN CASE with a low-powered round is no assurance of a "one-shot stop" due to the homeostatic nature of human physiology.
Piercing the skull will usually result in rapid swelling of brain tissue with a concommitant "set down" of the brain stem onto the Foramen Magnum leading to respiratory cessation...but it's NOT INSTANT!
Just ask Gabby Giffords.
People HAVE been shot "clean through" the head with a .38 special with no significant damage...I know, I was there.
The reason is because of "low power"....LOW KINETIC ENERGY!
A NON-expanding 7.62x51 NATO round through a human head will result in massive cranial fragmentation and deformation, with secondary "missile" formation that pulverizes soft tissue (dura matter) and causes INSTANT cessation of human action, with death only seconds away....that is ALL ABOUT SPEED and NOTHING about "expansion."

Slow bullets simply do not disrupt tissue beyond the "bow wave" of the bullet's track, and even such disruption as does occur is inconsequential.

This is WHY bullets moving above the SoS...regardless of "mass" are more lethal than those moving below the SoS. The farther above the SoS, the more violent the secondary effects....just look at how the 5.56x45 acts when fired from barrels longer than 16".

So the bottom line is, you carry a .38 caliber for convenience....concealability. When your time comes, do your best to shoot directly into the FACE/HEAD using the most powerful HP ammo you can find....

You're not volunteering to stand in front of a 642 loaded with puny 38 sp RN lead are you?