Well done, zzbruno! I'm never without my 642 and when I am dog walking it is incidents such as you described that keep me on high alert!
***GRJ***
***GRJ***
Real world effectiveness of 642
- Thread starter vito
- Start date
Bucky43
Member
Hornady Critical Defense .38
This Critical Defense load may have been tested in either American Rifleman or Guns & Ammo.
I will look in my back issues, and if I can find an article, I'll get it to you.
I just took deliver of a 15 oz. version of the 642. My FFL guy also has a large reloading factory and sells at most of the large gun shows. When I signed of on this gun at his factory, he advised this load over all others for this gun. It has good power but less recoil to distract you if you are taking multiple shots. Believe me, just practicing with your light pistol with any +P - or sometimes even normal loads -is unpleasant. This goes for any self defense pistol shooting that cartridge and weighing in around the 16 oz mark. I solve the problem by practicing with my 942 which is of normal weight and in 9mm, but is otherwise identical to the 640 series.
The round has an 'anti-plugging' component stuffed in to its hollow point which keeps heavy clothing from plugging the hollow point and compromising its effectiveness.
I have an American Arms derringer in .357 magnum, which weighs more than twice what your revolver weighs. I shoot regula range .38's in it. If it were loaded with .357 magums, I question which end of it might be the more painful.
This Critical Defense load may have been tested in either American Rifleman or Guns & Ammo.
I will look in my back issues, and if I can find an article, I'll get it to you.
I just took deliver of a 15 oz. version of the 642. My FFL guy also has a large reloading factory and sells at most of the large gun shows. When I signed of on this gun at his factory, he advised this load over all others for this gun. It has good power but less recoil to distract you if you are taking multiple shots. Believe me, just practicing with your light pistol with any +P - or sometimes even normal loads -is unpleasant. This goes for any self defense pistol shooting that cartridge and weighing in around the 16 oz mark. I solve the problem by practicing with my 942 which is of normal weight and in 9mm, but is otherwise identical to the 640 series.
The round has an 'anti-plugging' component stuffed in to its hollow point which keeps heavy clothing from plugging the hollow point and compromising its effectiveness.
I have an American Arms derringer in .357 magnum, which weighs more than twice what your revolver weighs. I shoot regula range .38's in it. If it were loaded with .357 magums, I question which end of it might be the more painful.
Fastbolt
Member
Really?
Not so sure I'd be so fervent in my proselytizing of the 10mm and some lightweight/high velocity specialty rounds as a panacea.
After all, once you start to learn of instances where 12ga 1 oz shotgun slugs, .308 rifle rounds, 25-28 torso hist by 9's or .45's, or even a centered hit by .357, .41 or .44 Magnum rounds didn't, "instantly stop" some attacker, or kill some innocent victim, even "higher energy" medium-bore handgun calibers like .357 Magnum, .357SIG or 10mm may not appear so "powerful" outside of paper ME/MV calculations.
It's all relative.
But hey, I can see the allure of hot-rodded, lightweight-for-caliber rounds. As a younger man and cop I once felt my .44 Magnum revolvers loaded with the hottest of the factory 180gr JHP's was the best thing going, due to sheer ME/MV (for caliber & bullet weight) and the informal "field testing" I'd done in the woods.
I no longer carry those .44's, though, and only take them out of the safe for occasional range sessions.
Sometimes it'll be because some younger instructor or pistol shooter will wonder about shooting a .44 Magnum, and I'll bring some mild heavyweight LSWC (think 250 @1000fps), and some standard 240gr factory Magnums, and sometimes some heavier 315gr handloads I still have remaining.
Other times it'll be because I like to remember the days when cops were known to carry .44's on and off-duty.
Then, sometimes it'll be because I simply feel like showing some of the younger 9/.40/.45 pistols shooters how a .44 Magnum DA revolver can be run through the same qual courses-of-fire, just as fast (or even faster), than most of them can run their low powered pistols.
I don't see any advantage in carrying them anymore, though, even though I'm living in less populated mountain area. The potential defensive needs I anticipate can realistically be handled by any of the good quality loadings available in 9, .40, .45ACP, or even my small .380ACP or .38 Spl. I'll still occasionally carry my SP101DAO loaded with Magnum rounds (being an older revolver guy), but my pair of M&P 340's typically see +P ammo.
Now, facing a determined attacker armed with a blade is often considered to present more of a mindset, skill and tactical problem than a "caliber" problem.
Anyway, the only time an attacker earnestly tried to gut me with a large wooden-scaled kitchen boning knife ... who was suspected by responding cops of being under the influence of the then-popular common street drug PCP ... I was neither a cop nor armed with a firearm.
The attacker missed his extended lunge and swing, putting himself seriously off balance for a moment. The video (in a store) showed him try to stab me, powerfully swinging at me ... and me suddenly getting away from the blow, disappearing just outside the camera view.
What it couldn't show was how I'd grabbed a couple objects to use as expedient weapons. The attacker seemed to hesitate, and then left, still acting weird.
At that time in my life I'd had about 10 years of experience in the martial arts, and I knew the best way not to get wounded by a knife was to get away from it. Distance was good. Unfortunately, I was severely limited in the direction & distance I could evade, due to the size and configuration of the area of the store where the attack occurred, without risking exposing my back to the oddly acting guy telling me that he was going to stab me on film.
Sometimes things just unfold in ways we'd neither expect nor wish.
DepOne
Member
I hav.e .a Magna ported 357 scandium J frame that I absolutely love. It is a lot of fun to shoot and as it is a Centennial Version it does require some skill and practice to be proficient with it.I taught police officers how to shoot at the academy for many years. I carried a handgun and sometimes a rifle or shotgun for many years and unfortunately had to use them on occasion. As much as I liked to play with the J frames they were never my primary weapon. we carried the Sig Sauer p220 in 45 caliber and never had an instance where it failed to stop. Admittedly, the officers were well trained and placed their bullets well. No I would not depend on a 38 special JFrame, even as a retired officer, for serious social Work I now carry a light weight 3 inch Para Ordnance 1911 either in a holster or securely in my pocket, believe it or not. The gun is small enough and light enough to almost go unnoticed, and I am confident of the ability to handle most any situation. that said, within reason, carrying something that you are comfortable and confident with is most important. Everyone may not like your choice but you are probably better off then carrying a gun you don't shoot well and have no confidence in. Aside from that, practice, practice, practice.
MARSHALDILLIONDODGECITY
Member
I carry a model 36 S/W with jacketed h.p off duty. I like the concealment it affords especially in the summertime.
As a man stopper well, I think it depends on shot placement of course,
however, many cops will probably agree it depends on the target
they all react differently some are stopped in their tracks while others
keep coming on there are several reasons why, drugs, determination and the list go's on.
One thing I agree with during a gunfight you will only be have as accurate as your last day at the range IMHO.
As a man stopper well, I think it depends on shot placement of course,
however, many cops will probably agree it depends on the target
they all react differently some are stopped in their tracks while others
keep coming on there are several reasons why, drugs, determination and the list go's on.
One thing I agree with during a gunfight you will only be have as accurate as your last day at the range IMHO.
Semper Fidelis
Last edited:
PBSO: 89-year-old Lake Park jeweler shoots armed robber | www.palmbeachpost.com
Uncertain of the ammo, but I'm certain the store owner felt he had shot the Terminator. This suspect was hit four times in the chest nearly point blank. Then was driven 20 miles from the scene and then rendered medical treatment. The suspect survived. Handguns in general are poor at instantaneous stops. Even in a few seconds left of life, a thug can return fire, stab you etc. This store owner was very fortunate he didn't get himself or someone else killed. I'm glad for the outcome.
Uncertain of the ammo, but I'm certain the store owner felt he had shot the Terminator. This suspect was hit four times in the chest nearly point blank. Then was driven 20 miles from the scene and then rendered medical treatment. The suspect survived. Handguns in general are poor at instantaneous stops. Even in a few seconds left of life, a thug can return fire, stab you etc. This store owner was very fortunate he didn't get himself or someone else killed. I'm glad for the outcome.
Ed Fowler
Member
The Sept Oct 2013 issue of American Handgunner had a well researched article by Greg Ellifritz about what cartridge had the most one shot stops. It all boiled down to the fact that no one wants to be shot twice. that happened from 47 to 72 % of the time. I found the article a great read.
Last edited:
John F.
Member
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2009
- Messages
- 240
- Reaction score
- 249
Originally Posted by Hans Gruber View Post
"People HAVE been shot "clean through" the head with a .38 special with no significant damage...I know, I was there. NO< NO<NO
1) Coming from a family of Polish Marines I could almost believe that, but your not suggesting that they lived, or could still function??? I would need to see that before I could believe it. CT/MRI, Full Chart, Autopsy records!!"
I spent an afternoon talking with a VIST (Visually Impaired Services) Coordinator at the VA where I worked. His last sight on this earth was of a fire-fight in Viet Nam that was at close range -- enemy about 30 yards and less from his hole. He was hit with an AK round (which would have been the steel core ball of the era) in the head, from side to side, through and through. I saw the dimples where entrance/exit wounds had been.
He was knocked out and when he woke up, he'd been put in a pile of KIA soldiers at a field medical facility, and wasn't able to call out or respond in a way as to get anyone's attention. He was terrified that he would be either left to die or buried alive. Luckily, he was discovered, treated, and has had a very productive life in the decades since. His only lasting effect was that he is now blind.
Yes, he survived and prospered after a through-and-through, side to side head shot from a 7.62x39 at close range. Bullet weight ~123 gr, and velocity MUCH higher than the .38 Spl == probably ~3x that of the .38. Unfortunately, you won't be able to view his "CT/MRI or autopsy" records, etc. because CT/s and MRI's hadn't been invented then, and he won't be dying any time soon. That doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Anyone who thinks they have a total lock on what happens when living organisms get shot, simply hasn't shot enough living organisms. I've shot a squirrel through the head, side to side, through and through, just like this veteran was, with a 600 fps air rifle pellet at close range, and he was blinded but totally functional, turning in circles and looking around as though wondering "who turned out the lights?"
There can be a big difference between theory and calculations vs. cold, physical reality. Another quote from Platoon: "There's the way the world "should" be, and there's the way it IS." (as best I can recall.)
In grad school, we were shown newspaper clippings and other information about a patient with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder who threatened a family member that he was going to shoot himself in the head with a .22 pistol. The family member, exasperated from many years of dealing with his life-long condition, said words to the effect of, "Be my guest!" He then did shoot himself through the head, and seems to have hit the area that was responsible for his OCD, as after he got out of the hospital, his OCD was reduced in severity by about 90%. He also had very little damage, otherwise.
There are many such stories, although I suspect you will have to find the "MRI/CTs, full charts and autopsies" on your own...
John
"People HAVE been shot "clean through" the head with a .38 special with no significant damage...I know, I was there. NO< NO<NO
1) Coming from a family of Polish Marines I could almost believe that, but your not suggesting that they lived, or could still function??? I would need to see that before I could believe it. CT/MRI, Full Chart, Autopsy records!!"
I spent an afternoon talking with a VIST (Visually Impaired Services) Coordinator at the VA where I worked. His last sight on this earth was of a fire-fight in Viet Nam that was at close range -- enemy about 30 yards and less from his hole. He was hit with an AK round (which would have been the steel core ball of the era) in the head, from side to side, through and through. I saw the dimples where entrance/exit wounds had been.
He was knocked out and when he woke up, he'd been put in a pile of KIA soldiers at a field medical facility, and wasn't able to call out or respond in a way as to get anyone's attention. He was terrified that he would be either left to die or buried alive. Luckily, he was discovered, treated, and has had a very productive life in the decades since. His only lasting effect was that he is now blind.
Yes, he survived and prospered after a through-and-through, side to side head shot from a 7.62x39 at close range. Bullet weight ~123 gr, and velocity MUCH higher than the .38 Spl == probably ~3x that of the .38. Unfortunately, you won't be able to view his "CT/MRI or autopsy" records, etc. because CT/s and MRI's hadn't been invented then, and he won't be dying any time soon. That doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Anyone who thinks they have a total lock on what happens when living organisms get shot, simply hasn't shot enough living organisms. I've shot a squirrel through the head, side to side, through and through, just like this veteran was, with a 600 fps air rifle pellet at close range, and he was blinded but totally functional, turning in circles and looking around as though wondering "who turned out the lights?"
There can be a big difference between theory and calculations vs. cold, physical reality. Another quote from Platoon: "There's the way the world "should" be, and there's the way it IS." (as best I can recall.)
In grad school, we were shown newspaper clippings and other information about a patient with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder who threatened a family member that he was going to shoot himself in the head with a .22 pistol. The family member, exasperated from many years of dealing with his life-long condition, said words to the effect of, "Be my guest!" He then did shoot himself through the head, and seems to have hit the area that was responsible for his OCD, as after he got out of the hospital, his OCD was reduced in severity by about 90%. He also had very little damage, otherwise.
There are many such stories, although I suspect you will have to find the "MRI/CTs, full charts and autopsies" on your own...
John
Last edited:
You should have read his whole post- I removed a great deal to save space. You can be shot through the back of the head or hit by a piece of shrapnel and end up blind as the Vietnam Vet, you can also put a small projectile through the frontal cortex and cause seizures, affect memory, change various conditions such as OCD. In his original post the through and through had NO significant damage, I would consider blindness significant. You are absolutely correct that sometimes the "impossible" seems to happen, but I will guarantee you that if you put a 175 gr SMKOT through a skull and completely destroy the medulla the result will always be the same-- No twitch. Be Safe,
Last edited:
thibaultfelix40
Member
- Joined
- May 3, 2011
- Messages
- 51
- Reaction score
- 14
I'm not a cop never have been. I'm just a country boy that aged into flatus anciens. I carried various 22 rifles and handguns a lot of places and shot lots of critters with them. Everyone either dropped or ran off. Is that not the goal of civilian defense? I use other guns now but I don't doubt that they all work sometimes and fail sometimes.
Freedomfirst
Member
Fortunately I have no "hands-on" experience or stories to add myself. I bow to the LEO's advice on your question. Snubbies are only for up close and personal work. I carry the Gold Dot 38+P Short barrel JHP. I can fire multiple shots quickly and fairly comfortably. I practice with .38 Sp round nose FMJ's but don't trust them to stop an attacker as they can pass right though without hitting anything vital and causing immediate incapacitation. I would say use the most powerful ammo you can handle in a JHP round and go for center mass or above, but make sure you hit somewhere in the middle "from balls to brain". The "double tap" never made sense to me with limits of 5 rounds without reloading plus with the legal environment as it is today, LEO's and civilians can both be held legally accountable for every shot fired.
Cal44
Member
"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra
The lady in Georgia last year who shot the home invader who was breaking into the hidey hole she'd retreated to with her two kids used a 642. She emptied the gun, hit him 5-for-5. She said she tried to shoot him some more, even as he begged her not to and fled the house, but she was out of ammo.
He survived to go back to prison. More important, she and her kids survived. Hope she learned how to reload her gun by now.
I really like my 642 for its weight, reliability, accuracy, rust-proof materials, and I even just like the look and feel of it. I always carry at least one reload, and practice regularly. I just don't try to convince myself that five is enough rounds for all circumstances.
As someone else said, and I've never forgotten: having a gun doesn't mean you automatically win. It just means that you get to play.
It doesn't really matter what gun it is, in the end. What matters is if you can, and will, use it effectively when the moment comes.
Oh, on getting shot through the head with a .38: I met a man I Louisiana who road the rails as a youngster during the depression, got the feeling he was a bit of a rowdy person when he was young. Railroad bull shot him one night. Bullet entered the center of his forehead and passed right on through and out the other side - I saw the scars. .38 Special, round nosed lead. Just passed between the lobes and didn't hit anything too important. *shrug. Weird stuff happens sometimes. He stopped fighting with that railroad bull.
He survived to go back to prison. More important, she and her kids survived. Hope she learned how to reload her gun by now.
I really like my 642 for its weight, reliability, accuracy, rust-proof materials, and I even just like the look and feel of it. I always carry at least one reload, and practice regularly. I just don't try to convince myself that five is enough rounds for all circumstances.
As someone else said, and I've never forgotten: having a gun doesn't mean you automatically win. It just means that you get to play.
It doesn't really matter what gun it is, in the end. What matters is if you can, and will, use it effectively when the moment comes.
Oh, on getting shot through the head with a .38: I met a man I Louisiana who road the rails as a youngster during the depression, got the feeling he was a bit of a rowdy person when he was young. Railroad bull shot him one night. Bullet entered the center of his forehead and passed right on through and out the other side - I saw the scars. .38 Special, round nosed lead. Just passed between the lobes and didn't hit anything too important. *shrug. Weird stuff happens sometimes. He stopped fighting with that railroad bull.
Last edited:
I have a 442 that I carried so long the nickel plating is wearing off,
I always felt well armed, there is a lot of people on the wrong side of the grass from the 38 special round.
Both times I needed a gun it got the job done.
I always felt well armed, there is a lot of people on the wrong side of the grass from the 38 special round.
Both times I needed a gun it got the job done.
Dirtman
Member
The best carry gun is one you will actually carry. I carry a 442 and my wife carries a 642. Both with Crimson trace lasers and loaded with +P HP ammo.
I've never had to shoot mine but did get into a situation that I had it in my pocket with my hand on it ready to use. Fortunately I didn't have to but I was really glad it was there.
I've never had to shoot mine but did get into a situation that I had it in my pocket with my hand on it ready to use. Fortunately I didn't have to but I was really glad it was there.
Protected One
Member
By "saving the day" I pressume you mean stopping, or preventing an attack??
Odds are you will never need to draw your 642, but if you do...
odds are you will not need to fire, but if you do...
odds are the gun(and the rounds) you are carrying will suffice.
Lots of EXCELLENT replies here!
Fortunately, I've never had to shoot anyone either but in the summer/shorts wearing time of the year I often am found carrying a Smith 340PD with 125g or 129g .38 +P loads in it and I sure don't feel naked/unprotected when I have that in my pocket holster. If you think .38+P's are not effective for self defense, then I assume that you feel the same way about 9mm???
Shot placement is ALWAYS the key no matter what caliber you decide to carry...
I didn't read 100% of the replies here so please excuse me if I repeat anyone, but when you think about the "stopping power" of ANY handgun/handgun caliber I defer to an old military saying regarding this issue:
"The ONLY thing a handgun is any good for is fighting your way to another rifle".
;-)
Now, back to roller derby....
Fortunately, I've never had to shoot anyone either but in the summer/shorts wearing time of the year I often am found carrying a Smith 340PD with 125g or 129g .38 +P loads in it and I sure don't feel naked/unprotected when I have that in my pocket holster. If you think .38+P's are not effective for self defense, then I assume that you feel the same way about 9mm???
Shot placement is ALWAYS the key no matter what caliber you decide to carry...
I didn't read 100% of the replies here so please excuse me if I repeat anyone, but when you think about the "stopping power" of ANY handgun/handgun caliber I defer to an old military saying regarding this issue:
"The ONLY thing a handgun is any good for is fighting your way to another rifle".
;-)
Now, back to roller derby....
Last edited:
Protected One
Member
For military personnel on the field of battle that statement is very true, because your enemy is most likely to be armed with a rifle. For the private citizen however?.... not so true.
OT, but a couple of years back, I was out for a walk after dark. I heard a dog growling and the sound of it running. I had a Model 10 in a OWB holster (under a barn coat) and a Mag-light.
About the time that I spun around, had the light on, pointed and was drawing the gun, there was a metallic rattle as the dog hit a chain-link fence. The fence was a dark color and I hadn't seen it.
I thought about that a bit and the problem of having to line up iron sights at night in a dynamic situation. I had an order in for a set of C/T grips the next day.
Similar threads
