Point of aim help

[Jiman]

... changing grip to correct a sight problem is senseless.
e.

All things being equal I'd agree but if a shooters grip or trigger manipulation is not correct to begin with no amount of sight adjustment is going to make a measurable difference. But yeah, if they’re grip/trigger is good, than no, it doesn’t make sense to change their grip to accommodate the sights.

IME, benching is most effective at longer ranges (i.e. 25+ yds) to fine tune. The OP is off at only 3 yds. IMO benching it there or even 7-10 yds doesn’t add any benefit. Even a decent shooter should be able to get a proper group at that distance two hands unsupported….if their grip/trigger is correct.
Just my .02
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[ejeli]

We're probably all saying the same thing in different ways. I always start by benching at 10 yards to make sure the gun is on target then work on my grip/trigger control. Guess we all end up in the same place.
e.

 

[scsu74]

What I would suggest then is to go back to 7 yds and work your way back to 25. IMO, there isn't a whole lot 3 yds is going to do for you to help with this issue. It's just too close.

If you're able to group consistently out to 15 yds, than whatever you're doing, you're doing consistently enough where a sight adjustment makes sense.

I'm wondering what your grip looks like. What's uncomfortable about using your first pad of your finger?

FWIW, I have L hands but use the small backstrap...go figure.

I'm using a thumb forward grip, my finger is just too long to comfortably use the middle part of my finger.

 

[scsu74]

Just got back from the range, this time with the large backstrap installed. It felt a little better, but when moving back to 7 yards my rounds are still low/left. I really focused on trigger control and trigger finger placement. Would the Apex striker block I have installed be effecting my round placement at all? Here are some photos of my targets:

First few sets

Starting to dial it in

Each circle is a set of 5 rounds

Once I sped up and started actually doing the drills my shots were low/left again:

From 7 yds aiming at the top of the 6 circle shots are almost off the paper

Ammo: 115g Federal aluminum cased
Distance for all but the last photo is 3 yes
POA was top line of each circle

 

[Rastoff]

OK, based on what you're saying, and what I see on the targets, you have a little flinch. This is more common than many think. Also, it is possible to be very consistent with that flinch.

One issue that the M&P has is too much over travel in the trigger. This can actually pull you off line easily. The effect is most obvious when shooting faster.

Because you can hit close to the center when concentrating, but the low/left is more pronounced when you speed up, this sounds like a flinch to me.

Does your grip look like this? (Yes, I'm a lefty. Yours should be a mirror image.)

I want to make sure of your grip before I suggest any corrections.

 

[Kovariles]

Here are a few shots of the front sight. From the top it looks pretty close to center, from the front it looks way off..

To me it seems that the front sight is slightly off center towards the right (top view) which would place the point of impact left of aim.

 

[scsu74]

OK, based on what you're saying, and what I see on the targets, you have a little flinch. This is more common than many think. Also, it is possible to be very consistent with that flinch.

One issue that the M&P has is too much over travel in the trigger. This can actually pull you off line easily. The effect is most obvious when shooting faster.

Because you can hit close to the center when concentrating, but the low/left is more pronounced when you speed up, this sounds like a flinch to me.

Does your grip look like this? (Yes, I'm a lefty. Yours should be a mirror image.)

I want to make sure of your grip before I suggest any corrections.

Similar to that ya, on the m&p my support hand thumb is parallel to the barrel and my thumb rests in front of the take down lever. I'd take photos, but not sure how to hold the gun and take a photo haha

 

[scsu74]

To me it seems that the front sight is slightly off center towards the right (top view) which would place the point of impact left of aim.

That's how it looks to me too, I'm going to bring it to a range guy next week.

A member on another forum brought up a good point about wrist angle. With my Glock I have to break my wrist down to be on target, it seems like the m&p is more of a straight wrist angle, I'm probably breaking my wrist still causin te rounds to impact low.

 

[Rastoff]

Similar to that ya, on the m&p my support hand thumb is parallel to the barrel and my thumb rests in front of the take down lever. I'd take photos, but not sure how to hold the gun and take a photo haha

I used a tripod and have a timer on my camera. If your grip is as you describe, it's fine. More below.

To me it seems that the front sight is slightly off center towards the right (top view) which would place the point of impact left of aim.

That's how it looks to me too, I'm going to bring it to a range guy next week.

You guys realize that the sights being centered on the slide is irrelevant to accuracy, right?

If this were a revolver or a Ruger Mark III, you'd be correct that it would affect point of impact (POI) because the sights are attached directly to the barrel. However, on a semi-auto the slide is not always perfectly aligned with the barrel. This is one reason sights sometimes need to be adjusted because the barrel is not attached to the sights.

This is also why it's critical to test accuracy from a bench rest. This is the only way to remove the human factor.

When shooting while standing, the shooter will move as the shot is taken. The best shooter in the world cannot stand perfectly still as the trigger is pulled. By shooting off a rest this movement is minimized as much as possible. Thus the only thing left is the accuracy of the gun itself.

A member on another forum brought up a good point about wrist angle. With my Glock I have to break my wrist down to be on target, it seems like the m&p is more of a straight wrist angle, I'm probably breaking my wrist still causing the rounds to impact low.

This is true, but I hope you're not intentionally moving your wrist as you shoot.

The Glock has more angle to the grip. Because of this most shooters have to angle the gun down a little to line the sights up. Do this a lot and it will become natural. The problem is, other guns don't have the same grip angle. So, you may have to spend quite a bit of time with the M&P so the new grip angle becomes more natural for you.

 

[scsu74]

I used a tripod and have a timer on my camera. If your grip is as you describe, it's fine. More below.


You guys realize that the sights being centered on the slide is irrelevant to accuracy, right?

If this were a revolver or a Ruger Mark III, you'd be correct that it would affect point of impact (POI) because the sights are attached directly to the barrel. However, on a semi-auto the slide is not always perfectly aligned with the barrel. This is one reason sights sometimes need to be adjusted because the barrel is not attached to the sights.

This is also why it's critical to test accuracy from a bench rest. This is the only way to remove the human factor.

When shooting while standing, the shooter will move as the shot is taken. The best shooter in the world cannot stand perfectly still as the trigger is pulled. By shooting off a rest this movement is minimized as much as possible. Thus the only thing left is the accuracy of the gun itself.

This is true, but I hope you're not intentionally moving your wrist as you shoot.

The Glock has more angle to the grip. Because of this most shooters have to angle the gun down a little to line the sights up. Do this a lot and it will become natural. The problem is, other guns don't have the same grip angle. So, you may have to spend quite a bit of time with the M&P so the new grip angle becomes more natural for you.

Sorry, didn't mean as I shoot, meant the way I lock out prior to breaking the shot. With my Glock there's more tension in the wrist and it is flexed forward compared to the m&p. I've only ever shot glocks so I'm naturally trying to shoot like that with the m&p. I think I'm going to really practice keeping my wrist upright and see if that helps at all.

 

[Rastoff]

I think I'm going to really practice keeping my wrist upright and see if that helps at all.

Don't practice keeping your wrist up, just practice keeping the sights aligned. This will fix your wrist problem, if it is even a problem, by itself.

 

[scsu74]

Don't practice keeping your wrist up, just practice keeping the sights aligned. This will fix your wrist problem, if it is even a problem, by itself.

Sounds good, appreciate all the help. Just frustrating being able to shoot the glock so well and then struggling with the m&p. I'm sure once I finish the academy I'll have enough rounds through it to be just as proficient. I've been dry firing a lot making sure to just move my trigger finger and to not squeeze the rest. I'm able to keep the front sight steady through the whole trigger pull so hopefully the practice pays off.

 

[Jiman]

IMHO, the whole goal of shooting with sights is the challenge of keeping the sights aligned while doing everything else. Shooting is actually simple...line up your sights and pull the trigger without disturbing your sight picture.

Much easier said than done. Out of the two most anyone can line up their sights. Pulling the trigger without disturbing them is the hard part and key to that is proper grip. Part of a grip is locking your wrists and developing references so your techniques are repeatable and consistent.

Keeping your wrist in a consistent locked position takes some getting used to for some. I'm not sure if you've tried this yet but it might help...

Focusing on your support hand, before gripping the gun, rotate your fully extended fingers /hand @45 deg. toward the ground and than grip your gun (both thumbs forward).

Now as you come to full extension you should feel your support side wrist angle down (kinda like how your strong side Glock grip looks, but now it's your support hand on an M&P). You should also feel your support side elbow really lock out.

What this does is lock your wrists/grip/arms. Again this is without seeing you shoot but IME, those that come from a Glock where there is a definite rolling forward of the wrist, transitioning to a more up right wrist angle, doesn't offer a set-point or reference.

With a Glock if you basically pointed with a straight thumb to the target you knew it was right. With the M&P, it's not so clear and that's where I think as the shot breaks (and maybe during the recovery) your wrists angle down because that's what your body remembers and your shot goes low...my SWAG is the windage is a combo of your sights and you flinching or anticipating the recoil a bit.

Anyway try the support side thing and it should help you develop a clearer reference point and lock in your wrist movement. It will also allow you to recover more quickly between shots, which means you'll eventually be able to shoot faster.

I hope some of this works for you.

Good luck in the Academy.

 

[Rastoff]

I've been dry firing a lot making sure to just move my trigger finger and to not squeeze the rest. I'm able to keep the front sight steady through the whole trigger pull so hopefully the practice pays off.

I understand your frustration. Having spent a lot of time with a Glock, I'm not surprised you're having a little difficulty with the M&P. Still, as long as you keep up this attitude (meaning you have a good attitude), you'll get there. Dry practice is the key and you're doing that.

 

[TYSTYX]

Judging by those pics, the front sight is too far to the right, so it's going to cause your shots to go left. Also, aren't the HD sights taller than the stock sights? If you're using a 6 o'clock hold with them your POI is going to be low. Drift your front sight back to center and cover your target with the front dot.