Buying Here for Resale > New Rules

[handejector]

Edited to add-
9-28 @ 3:31 pm EDT.
I know we are usually very lenient with joking around and drifting.
Let's NOT do it in this thread. It is going to run for hundreds of posts and we just don't need the clutter!
Keep it serious and on track.
Keep it civil, but feel free to be blunt and candid.
__________

For some time, I've been receiving complaints from many members about dealers buying guns from our classifieds and reselling the guns.

While we finalize our handling of the matter, we'll use this solution-
Dealers, Traders, and Flippers buying for RESALE are required to WAIT 24 hours after an ad is posted before buying.
/\ This is effective immediately. Please comply voluntarily.
__________

We have always tried to maintain a laissez-faire attitude in handling the ads to the extent which is possible while maintaining order and making them work smoothly.
You are all adults.
You are all free people.
We have trusted you to handle your affairs as you see fit so long as you perform in an ethical and reasonably efficient manner.
We make suggestions, such as using the "I'll Take It", and suggesting that you post clear terms and pics, and give full disclosure.

I want you all to note that I have had NO complaints from sellers about this issue.
That, plus personal time constraints, has delayed my approach to this issue.
However, some dealers are making it painfully obvious they watch the board constantly and buy most good guns within minutes.

I am inviting discussion.
Keep it CIVIL.
I'll consider, and would like input from all- buyers, sellers, and dealers.
Again- Keep it CIVIL.

 

[handejector]

9-28-14 @ 8:33 am-
As you can see, I've reserved several of the early post windows in this thread.
I'll be using them to address questions and issues.

The first I'll address is the wording of 'The Solution'-

New Version-
Dealers, Traders, and Flippers buying for RESALE are required to WAIT 24 hours after an ad is posted before buying.

First Version-
For the record, the first version was:
Dealers are required to WAIT 24 hours after an ad is posted before buying.
_____________
9-29-14 @ 1:12 pm

Definitions:
For our discussion here, we'll use the following definitions-

Dealer
A dealer is someone who buys and sells guns for profit. Some dealers have an FFL. Some dealers do not have an FFL. For our purposes here, we don't care if a 'Dealer' has an FFL or not. That is ATF's problem and jurisdiction. LEAVE that ALONE- it is NOT what we are discussing.
I have an FFL. I make a living as a Dealer.
Some people attach a stigma to being a dealer, but I do not. It all comes down to how you play the game.

Trader
A term I have heard all my life. Merely a colloquial term for 'Dealer'. See the above. I do not mind being called a Trader. It does not usually carry a negative connotation in my experience and observation.

Flipper
A dealer or trader who works fast and efficiently.
See the above. Calling me a flipper would imply I am doing my job well.
_____________

I don't get what the issue is.

Seller posts asking price in ad.
Buyer pays asking price for gun.
Seller gets what they want.
Buyer gets what they want.
Buyer is now owner and can do as they please...wipe it, fondle it, shoot it, or, yes, even sell it.


Sounds like some folks were always getting beat out of the good seat on the school bus as a kid.

You guys are actually considering restricting gun sales on a gun forum? Wow................

I wish I had never read this thread.

If someone wants to sell something - anything - and sets a price that THEY WANT why should they care who buys it and what business is it of yours what the buyer does with it?

This is still America - I think. It used to be made up by capitalist, now it's shifting to a bunch of whiners.

Ban me if you want, I really don't care anymore.

How long does a buyer have to keep a gun before resale and then be labeled as a flipper? 1 day? 1 week? 1 month? 1 year?

I have seen several guns sell here that I would have bought if I'd only gotten there earlier. But, I wasn't the first, and I didn't throw a tantrum because someone beat me to it.

This makes me think that the "fairness" crowd has invaded this forum. Kinda like where the school kids all get an award or trophy and no one is the winner. Ya know, in the name of fairness.

My Bad-
I assumed there was very widespread knowledge of what we consider the problem to be. From the complaints I've received and from comments I've seen posted, I thought everyone had figured it out-

The Problem-
A handful of buyers, like FIVE or LESS, are buying something like 60-80% (maybe more) of the truly choice guns presented for sale here IF they are priced below what they will probably bring on GB or any other resale venue or method. They buy vintage and current stuff.
They are buying the guns in LESS than 5 minutes, often around two minutes.
So, are we REALLY wanting to let that continue?
Does anyone REALLY want a few dealers to buy EVERY choice gun that leaves room for some profit BEFORE 99.9% of the members have even seen the ad? We are to allow the members only a chance at the leftovers?

I'm trying to make this work for everybody.
'Everybody' means buyers and sellers.
Perhaps a seller purposely underprices a gun to sell it quickly. If it is desirable, it will probably sell quickly. If it is not desirable enough to sell to a regular member in 24 hours, I'm doubtful one of the dealers would have bought it anyway.

More coming......

 

[handejector]

Apparently these five or so buyers are well known to Lee and his staff. I am now of the opinion that these individuals should be looked at closely and on a case by case basis. If they are regular contributors to the discussions on this forum, by all means, let them stay.
If it turns out that the majority of their posts are simply "I'll take it" then they should be banned or at least have their access to the For Sale forums removed.

I do still oppose adding new rules. However, I have no problem with taking out the trash.

The dealers are NOT trash.
They are simply working our ads a little too hard.
Remember- I have to make this work for the sellers also. If members do not want the gun and a dealer does, GO for it, AFTER it has been up for 24 hours.
That is a Win/Win/Win-
Regular Members had their shot
Seller sold a gun
Dealer bought a gun

To be blunt, let's see if members put their money where their mouths are.
________________

Addressing some points that have been raised-

Buying for Resale-
A buyer knows why he is buying the gun, so we are speaking of intent. Those who have expressed concern that they are now locked out of buying for 24 hours because they hold an FFL need not worry on that score alone. If buying the gun for resale, act honorably and wait 24. If buying it 'for yourself', go ahead.
If you buy a gun for yourself and later need to sell due to finding a grail gun or a better example, you aren't flipping the gun. Maybe you could then sell it here......
I realize 'intent' can be hard to track. We have many, many members who watch ALL the venues. Between them, they'll see it ALL. They seem very willing to send us links to ads here AND the link to the auction or ad.
Sure, some guns bought in less than 24 to be flipped will get by us, but I feel very confident most cheaters will eventually get outed. You are all invited to help.

Auctions
Not on my watch.
We don't have the software or the manpower to make them work.
Give it up- AIN'T Happening.

Post Counts Requirements
We always get the suggestion that we should require a minimum post count to buy or sell here.
No, No, NO!
For the HUNDREDTH time, NO!
They do nothing good, and plenty that is bad.
One BAD thing it can do is keep some good guns off the board when people have inherited a gun- they want to make one post to find out what it is and the value, and then place an ad.
Do you REALLY want pre-war guns going somewhere else because we require 6 months here or 50 posts?

Donations
The dealers we speak of ARE donors (or perhaps used to be now ). We won't be requiring new buyers or sellers to donate. Members who sell regularly or buy regularly are asked to donate at the Silver level.

Notifications
The forum software has a notification feature built in. You can subscribe to forums or threads and be notified when new posts are made in them. They are not instant. If we turn them off for one forum, they go off for all forums. We won't be turning them off at this time.
Tapatalk is an app for smart phones. It more or less gives you a mini-view of the forum on the phone. Without Tapatalk, I am told the forum looks very lousy. Tapatalk will give instant notifications. Again, it is all or NONE. We won't be turning them off, either. We/you can't stop progress. I'm sure the Pony Express hated telegraphs and railroads. I'm sure railroads hated to see airplanes come along and I'm sure telegraphs hated to see telephones invented.
Tried to find a pay phone lately?
_________________

I've thought long and hard over this.
Running a forum is like being a world class chess master- you need to think at least 8 moves ahead or you'll be found wanting.
Remember back-
When I bought the board, PMs were turned OFF.
NO registrations were allowed with a free email account.
"I'll Take It" WAS required in every ad.
You were NOT allowed to list a gun here and somewhere else.
I decided you deserved PM's, the right to privacy on a sale if desired, whatever email you liked, and the right to list elsewhere IF you have enough sense to tend to your ad and mark items sold.
The 24 hour delay for buyers who resell can work well for the members- both buyers and sellers. I do realize that it won't be popular with resellers, but this board's ads are not intended to be a crop that is harvested by resellers after being planted by someone else. That equates to pillaging.

So, we will do what it takes.
We may have to go back to requiring a posted "I'll Take It" to keep things in the light.
We may have to again require that items be listed only here, and that they be listed for at least 5-7 days before they can be withdrawn to prevent suspicious withdrawals.
Trust me here- I've already thought of many ways a 'game' can be run.
I'd much rather have voluntary compliance.

 

[handejector]

Running a forum is like being a world class chess master- you need to think at least 8 moves ahead or you'll be found wanting.

I forgot to mention that is why you get dinged for creatively spelling a mild word like cr@p, or for a girlie pic you could show at work, or your slightly risque joke gets deleted- because we are thinking ahead to 1 am Pacific time when Bubba will show up loaded with a 12 pack, and show you how to REALLY do it.
Somebody always has to drive it just a little farther....

Did it occur to everyone that Lee himself is a gun dealer? I think we will all have to agree that Lee lays off of guns in the classifieds so that the average member can have a shot at it. If the owner of the board himself can extend that kind of courtesy, I don't think it's much to ask from a small number of dealers who have been immediately flipping guns.

Thank You for pointing that out.
I've often wondered if anyone besides you had noticed.

Plan B was for me to simply buy all the gems. I didn't look, but the software probably has a way to delay posts in a given forum for review. I could just go ahead and post my "I'll Take It" before the ad becomes visible. That would fix the problem that some members think we don't have.

 

[handejector]

Count me with David Carroll and Kieth44spl. Hmm all our names are David....

I made my fortune as a produce buyer and that involved crawling out of bed in the wee wee hours and often working until dark. In a city like Louisville there is only a finite amount of quality product that is on the mkt. I guess I shoulda bought light so the sleepy heads could get their fill. Not hardly

I've built up a pretty fair gun collection by driving many miles and walking many miles. Whadya got in the box is one of my favorite phrases when I'm working the aisles at a gunshow. A lot of wannabes don't like people like me because we can make our mind up on the spot and don't have to phone a friend or ask our wives. I've bought some good guns on this forum, especially in the mid 2000s, but lately I seldom look because I can do better at Salem, Seymour, Bedford, NGD, Indy 1500 et al. But if I see something I want in the classifieds, you can bet your bippy I'll buy it w/out a thought for the 2nd place buyer.

It's a dog eat dog world and I'll end this post with a bit of poetry that has served me well: Don't sit on your *** and whine, get your dime like I got mine.

Apparently, I still have not made my ONE concern clear to everyone.

The ONLY issue here is those who are buying for immediate resell, motivated by profit.
The objective is to prevent resellers from buying all the choice guns within minutes of the ads being posted.
So, we now require resellers to wait 24 hours while the gun enthusiasts buying for themselves have a chance to buy the guns- the shooters, collectors, and accumulators.

The issue is NOT making sure regular members have a completely level field, nor that we "spread it all around equally."

Some shooters, collectors, or accumulators will always be buying more guns than others because they have more money, have more time to watch the board, or use notifications and have all day access.
That's life.
If a member can't possibly view the board till 6 pm and a good gun at a good price is posted at 2 pm, it won't much matter how the buyer found it because it will probably be sold. I just want to assure the NON-reselling members get the first chance. After that, you're on your own!
If members don't buy in the first 24 hours, resellers are invited to buy.

To reiterate-
NOTHING is changing except for requiring a 24 hour delay for resellers to buy here. Period.

Be advised-
Resellers using multiple IDs and shills or puppets to circumvent the rule will eventually get caught.
Let's just do right.

 

[handejector]

I think a SECOND "Guns for Sale" Classified section should be created and it would implement the 24 hour rule for "Dealers, Traders, and Flippers." This SECOND section would co-exist with the current, unrestricted section and the SELLER would have his/her CHOICE as to which section they placed their ad in.

Let's not "inspire confusion".
Two forums for gun sales with different rules? With one forum as we have now, there are many violations per day.
Moderating the ads takes more man hours than any other forum. Two forums with different rules will triple or quadruple the moderator load.
Two gun ad forums with different rules is out of the question.
_______________

I think a max number of guns per month etc would get to the heart of the perceived problem and would be easy to monitor. This gets rid of the whole process of labeling members as traders, flippers or whatever.

Two a month should satisfy most any collector.

Problematic, both philosophically and logistically.
Philosophically, it could deprive the seller of a willing buyer. No one else buys it, but the willing buyer has already bought his two.
Logistically- Would that be a calendar month or 30 day period or flip-flop between the two as needed?
Is it cumulative? If you skip 3 months, can you buy 8 this month?
Likewise, if I see 4 I really, really want, can I buy all 4 and skip next month?
Buying limits are out of the question at this time.

 

[handejector]

Judging by what I seen happen in the classifieds today, the dealer rule does not apply anymore.

Eric

You must mean this....

http://smith-wessonforum.com/guns-sale-trade/398213-spf-model-63-no-dash-4-box.html

Several posts were deleted before the thread was closed, gumpys, including yours and mine.

For those who missed it, when you questioned the purchase, "Dirty Harry Gun Sales" replied he was buying it for his girlfriend.

So, as I see it, we now have a "loop-hole" in the 24 hour rule. Any of the "flippers" can say that they are buying it for ____________________(fill in the blank).

Those posts are restored.
I replied to that thread. Check it out.
I find it interesting that a perceived violation of one rule caused another rule to be violated- the one on extraneous posts.

_________________________

Apparently, and unfortunately, it would appear that the honor system alone is not going to be sufficient. Regardless of each of our opinions on this issue, the owner / administrator had made his wishes known.

It appears as though more enforcement will be necessary.

I NEVER counted on the honor system for this to work.
When the Staff and I have discussed various things over the years, they have often heard me say-
"Anything that CAN be abused WILL be abused."
_________________________

You must mean this....

http://smith-wessonforum.com/guns-sale-trade/398213-spf-model-63-no-dash-4-box.html

Several posts were deleted before the thread was closed, gumpys, including yours and mine.

For those who missed it, when you questioned the purchase, "Dirty Harry Gun Sales" replied he was buying it for his girlfriend.

So, as I see it, we now have a "loop-hole" in the 24 hour rule. Any of the "flippers" can say that they are buying it for ____________________(fill in the blank).

Hopefully, the girlfriend getting the 63 doesn't find out about the girlfriend getting the 39, and if those two are smart they wont mess with the girlfriend getting the 629!!! I bet she's one tough gal!!!!

The 39 had been posted for almost 70 hours when he bought it, so it was fair game for anyone.
We'll take him at his word on the 63.
I sent him a PM asking if the 629 was for resale.
_________________________

Judging by what I seen happen in the classifieds today, the dealer rule does not apply anymore.

Eric

Yes, it still applies. I'll expand on that in a minute.
I see you sell on GB- GunBroker.com - View User Feedback: gumpys
Does that disqualify YOU from buying the 63?
Were you buying it for resale?
I'm just curious how far you want me to push this.
_________________________

Maybe this clown should just be banned.
A clear violation of the 24 hour rule. Not once but 2 times!

First, we won't be calling people names.

Next, I'll remind everyone that dealers are people too.
I'm a dealer.
I'll take DH at his word on the 63, and we'll wait to see what he says about the 629.

Haris was jumped earlier about a 2" 5 screw M&P that he bought.
Read his answer. Dealer buys #2

So, we now arrive at our Reading Comprehension Class for today. It seems to be becoming a lost art.

Dealers, Traders, and Flippers buying for RESALE are required to WAIT 24 hours after an ad is posted before buying.
Read that /\
Every word there is there for a reason.
Every word not there is not there.
Where does it say a dealer cannot buy in less than 24 hours?
Does it maybe say that a dealer buying for resale must wait 24?
Remember that I say above:
"Next, I'll remind everyone that dealers are people too.
I'm a dealer."
If I see a gun I want for myself, I'm going to buy it. Maybe in 2 minutes.
If I see a gun that I believe I can make money on, I'll buy it when it hits 24 hours.
I am not going to behave in one manner and ask others to adhere to a different set of rules.

This will be an ongoing endeavor. It won't be fought like WW III which begins, gets fought, and is over in 4 or 5 hours.
It will instead consist of a few pitched battles, but often will be fought as a counterguerrilla action.

Sure, a few guns will get scalped, a few dealers will get by with cheating some, and some might take some time to catch, but if we all work together, we'll catch them.
You will all have to help.
Put up or shut up, so to speak.
Report what you think are violations. All posts have the

for reporting them. Use it.
Send us links to auctions or other online ads.
If you know a guy buys guns here and flips them at gun shows only, let us know.
We may or may not catch all violators, but if we work together we can make a hell of a difference.
Rest assured we will do what it takes.
If we have to require the public "I'll Take It" again, we will.
If we have to post a list of dealers, we will.
It goes without saying that violators and their aids who won't adhere to the spirit of this rule will be banned.

The Staff is reviewing a revised set of rules for their input.
They will be posted soon.

_________________________

Searching the History of a Member-
Using the Advanced Search, you can view the history of any member in each ad section.

#1- Click "Search" in the top bar.
#2- Click "Advanced Search" in the drop-down menu.

Then you will get this page:
#1- Type or paste the member's User ID here.
#2- Select the "Classifieds" area, OR you can select "Guns for Sale" or "Accessories" for posts in those ares only.
#3- Select "Posts" because it is easier than a list of threads to deal with.
#4- Click "Search Now".

 

[dimedog]

Thanx for noticing this.
I thought that I was the only one seeing this. I know for a fact,
( without naming names ) that this has occurred. I absolutely love this forum and have found it a great place to buy a gun or two at a fair price. It is at times, especially lately, very frustrating to see the same people (who are obviously dealers)
snatch these items up in a matter of minutes, only to see them a few days later on the auction sites. This is America, and capitalism is king, however, I like the 24 hour idea. How will we know who is a dealer and who isn't for sure?? Honor system??
I have bought from the classifieds minutes after an ad was posted.
Seems lately that is almost what you have to do.
Like I said tho, Frustrating.

 

[lowriderfxr]

Seems like a good permanent solution to me.

 

[flundertaker]

I figured we were headed in this direction and applaud the decision as a first step. I always figured people sold guns here in hopes they were going to another enthusiast. I have knowingly left money on the table by selling guns here with fingers crossed they were going to a good home and that I would not see them on GB or elsewhere in a weeks time.
Idealistic or nieve? Maybe. I still feel better dealing with folks here . I have bought plenty elsewhere but all my smith sales have been on forums and to folks I believed to be enthusiasts, not resellers.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

 

[05CarbonDRZ]

Thank You VERY much Lee,A Forum is about like minded people sharing info and helping out each others collections.....Not padding your Pocket.I was getting sick and tired of watching every Gun being bought within 5 Minutes only to be seen on GB a Week or Two later.

 

[skeetshooter]

For the most part Dealers are really no different than collectors as far as buying a firearm.
Some collectors who watch the boards are just as aware of the value of a collectable as a dealer is and buy just as fast.

I for one feel the Forum is fair for all and subscribe to the adage, "If it ain't broke don't fix it"
IMHO,
This sounds like a tough nut to crack.

(I am not a Dealer)
Don

 

[05CarbonDRZ]

It is not about buying fast,There is no problem with being at the right place at the right time.There is also no problem with buying a Gun here and awhile down the Road deciding to sell it.The problem lies with Dealers buying every gun there is any "profit" in with the sole intent of putting them on GB as soon as they arrive.Some of these Dealers do not contribute anything to the Forum as far as info is concerned.They are only here for the Classifieds.....Period.

 

[Jimbo41]

I'm not a big poster here, and hadn't thought much about this issue, but I just saw a gun I wanted posted 2 hours ago and a user WhiteDove had bought it almost immediately, so I looked at his user profile, he's got 42 posts since joining in. Feb of this year and almost every one is "I'll take it." Maybe just an avid collector. Nonetheless, can't say that I think the solution implemented is much of a solution since I doubt anyone knows who the dealers are, but then I also don't see it as a huge problem.

 

[J. R. WEEMS]

Doesn't effect me in any way, but I cannot help wonder what many sellers think about not being able to sell their posted item for 24 hours?? Is it the buyers who are complaining? I know for a fact there are those that cannot buy because of the private classified. Most of us are not even allowed to look in there. Not trying to start any trouble, and it isn't my forum for sure, but to be fair, the classafied should be open to all buyers on a equal basis. I DO understand the problem however. That being said, if some sellers are so worried about what will be done with their item them maybe they should screen their buyers more closely. You either have it for sale, or you don't. Now, this is JMHO so don't be offended. I really don't think HE should be task with trying to calm the whiners. again JMHO

 

[augy]

I've always considered this board to be first class, and enjoyed reading comments from the members. The classifieds are a great way to find what your looking for, and maybe just happen to find. This works great for the buyer and seller.
I've bought from this board in the past, and consider myself a collector. However, I might want to sell a gun that I don't feel I need anymore, and want something different. I really don't see a problem with a Licensed FFL (if your dealer terminology means licensed FFL) buying on this board and doing whatever they want once they buy the gun.
IMHO, it really should be no one's concern if they sell or keep what they purchased on the forum. The way the forum was set up, its fair for all to buy or sell. If you snooze you loose on who says "I'll Take It", its that simple. I'm not a FFL, but to me this is saying its OK for non-dealers to buy and sell, but not OK for a licensed FFL to buy off of this board unless they wait 24 hours. I don't think this is the way to go.
Just something to think about...... my .02 Jim

 

[Thiokol]

I've pretty much given up trying to buy any firearms from the classifieds precisely because of the two dealers that snipe all the good ones as soon as they're posted. As Jimbo41 mentioned, WhiteDove only plays in the classifieds and doesn't participate in any of the other forums. If there was no classified sub-forum here, I doubt that he would have any interest in being a member of the forum. Personally, if I were to post a firearm for sale and he posted an "I'll take it", I wouldn't sell it to him solely on principle.

The other dealer who is a prolific buyer admittedly has posted in some of the other forums but his post count is still overwhelmingly in the classifieds as a buyer. I wouldn't sell to him either.

Other than not allowing dealers to participate in the classifieds, which is probably not an option, I think that Lee's course of action makes the most sense. It keeps the wolves away from the door for a reasonable period and gives the true collector a fighting chance to add a nice piece to his collection. I would, however, suggest that all dealers on the forum be identified either by a notation under their screen name or by a profile badge.

 

[lowriderfxr]

Doesn't effect me in any way, but I cannot help wonder what many sellers think about not being able to sell their posted item for 24 hours??

JR,

I don't interpret this the same way you do. I don't think this new rule restricts selling for 24 hours, only that a dealer must wait 24 hours to buy it. I think most people consider this a collectors' forum and would like to see collectors, accumulators, shooters, hobbyists, etc. have a chance at it before the "upcharge" on Gunbroker, etc.

If a person wants a quick sale and doesn't have any heartburn about selling it to an active dealer, nothing is stopping them from Pm'ing the known dealers and offering it.

I don't think I've ever been in such a hurry or bind that I didn't have 24 hours to spare.

 

[A10]

I think its a start. I don't mind someone buying quickly, or someone making a profit. I DO mind people using the Forum as a profit center. There are several folks who come here only to buy. While it may add to the sellers funds, it adds nothing to the Forum. Lees solution will at least allow contributing members to have a chance at fairly priced guns. If no one buys after a day, fair enough.

 

[1891SingleShot]

So here I sit, a collector of Smith & Wessons, who also happens to have an FFL License. I am by no means a big-time dealer, and I have never even sold a firearm that needed to be shipped. I have a handful of firearms in inventory because I like to set up at a few local gunshows. Now I'm supposed to wait 24 hours before I can purchase a firearm off of this forum??? I call B.S.