Gun Trigger Modifications a No Go According to Article

[marathonrunner]

Guys, The link below is a very good article write up and after reading it, I am tempted to remove the Apex Duty Carry Trigger from my Shield and also the Aluminum Apex Trigger and go back to stock. I hate the stock trigger but according to this article, it's not so much the mod itself but the fact you turned yourself into some kind of Rambo. The article stressed that the prosecutor will try to ring you out to dry. What do you all think? Would you modify your CCW weapon to make trigger lighter? I thought just making it smoother but keeping trigger lb same would work but evidently what this article said is your gun will be sent to a lab to see what you did to it.

Gun Modifications, Light Triggers and Reloaded Ammunition

 

[colt_saa]

In the 4 or 5 decades this kind of article has been appearing, you probably could not point out 4 or 5 instances where this situation actually occurred

Crime labs seldom disassemble firearms to see if you replace the sear.

Prosecutors seldom know what kind of trigger was in the firearm when it left the factory.

 

[marathonrunner]

trigger

In the 4 or 5 decades this kind of article has been appearing, you probably could not point out 4 or 5 instances where this situation actually occurred

Crime labs seldom disassemble firearms to see if you replace the sear.

Prosecutors seldom know what kind of trigger was in the firearm when it left the factory.

So are you saying you would carry a CCW with an apex trigger mod? Yes the article may have been out but it sounds pretty convincing on paper. The prosecuter would not know of course but the gun would be sent to a lab the article was saying so the prosecuter wouldn't have to know anything I am thinking

 

[USAF385]

I've read that sort of thing dozens of times. I don't own a single gun that hasn't been modified in one way or another. Could be just swapping a plastic guide rod out for a stainless one, or installing a totally different trigger assembly.

You could say night sights should be on the do-not-install list because it helps you acquire a target easier in low light. Or that grip tape shouldn't be used because it makes the gun easier to hold and therefore more deadly.

Edit: my Sig P938 is all stock.

 

[2hawk]

A good shoot is a good shoot, and a bad shoot is a bad shoot. Triggers have nothing to do with changing that, unless you ND and cause injury or death. (Hint, that would be a "bad shoot" by dint of the ND). colt_saa is right, you can go back as far as there have been articles written on guns and you'll see the same thing.

On my SD weapons, my trigger, lightened or not, is going to be one that allows me to shoot quickly, accurately, and be utterly reliable. If I don't have any of those I don't have the right trigger. ymmv

 

[hdfinder47]

A recent case in Tomball, Texas resulted in the city loosing a lawsuit due to a Glock 4.5# "competition" trigger having been installed in a duty gun. BING search might result in other instances?
But prosecutors are on to this angle now and my 2 carry guns are back to factory stock triggers. Range guns are a different matter.........

 

[2hawk]

hdfinder, was that shooting ruled justified or not? And how did the trigger figure into the decision.

Inquiring minds, ya know


==========================


NM, think I found it: http://americanhandgunner.com/unintended-shot-the-santibanes-incident/

"Unintentional Discharge" is cited, which we know really means NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE.

Bad gun handling is bad gunhandling, period. I do have sympathy for the officer and victim both in this case. Well, maybe not the victim, so much...sounds like he was going for weapons, and it could well have been that another or second into the scenario would have provided a legal justification for a bullet. But, that's not the way it happened...

 

[Mushki]

I don't care what the article states. I would only use my gun to defend a life, period. If doing so means that I would get in trouble with the law then so be it, at least I would be alive to get in that trouble. I firmly believe that if the shooting is justified 12 if my peers would believe the same but luckily it only takes one

 

[colt_saa]

A recent case in Tomball, Texas resulted in the city loosing a lawsuit due to a Glock 4.5# "competition" trigger having been installed in a duty gun. BING search might result in other instances?
But prosecutors are on to this angle now and my 2 carry guns are back to factory stock triggers. Range guns are a different matter.........

That was a Negligent Discharge

Not a prosecutor going after a private citizen that defended his life

 

[Jiman]

Generally, the courts IME accept aftermarket sights (i.e. night sights) and grips as accepted modifications. However changes to the weapon which reduce trigger pull weight from factory specs (relative to whatever that might be for the brand that you carry) or other modifications to safety mechanisms (i.e. removal of magazine disconnects, manual safeties, taping down of grip safeties, etc..) are not considered OK. There's also the complication of different state laws that might restrict magazine capacity, and other components that might not be legal in your state regardless of how stupid the law is (i.e. folding stocks, forward grips, bayonet lugs, etc..)

When a weapon goes for inspection, they confirm serial numbers, perform a function check to ensure it fires in a 'water barrel test', match up the recovered round, if found, to the round recovered from the test fire, bullet casing analysis, measure trigger pull, etc… I would assume that in states like NJ where hollow point ammo is not allowed, the type of ammo would be examined as well.

I've not heard or experienced the inspection go beyond that to document after-market parts etc… unless the case required a more in depth analysis, meaning it was somehow germane to the trial. I have seen the examiner point out cases where serial numbers were filed off, safeties were removed, or grip safeties taped down (i.e. deactivated); and in cases of rifles and shotguns barrels cut down, and/or illegally converted to full auto. But those mods are either visually obvious or clear when a test fire is conducted. In those cases it did not go well for the defendant, but the gun mods were IME aggrevating issues not the sole reason for guilt of the crime. My experiences though are limited to criminal cases like drive-by shootings, other gang related shootings, DV, etc…vs. citizen SD cases.

I would logically assume that in cases of a negligent discharge, especially one that caused injury/death to another person or to a lesser extent property damage, the modification to a weapon to make it less safe would be held against the defendant.

YMMV depending on your state, influence of the prosecuter/defense, the judge/jury, and the totallity of the case.

 

[southcoast]

In a clean shoot situation, which should be the only times a weapon is pointed and fired at someone, a modified trigger or any other modifications will have zero legal bearing on the situation. I challenge anyone including the author of the article to find one case where a weapon modification became a legally relevant issue in an actual case where the shooting was deemed justified. Hint: it doesn't exist. If the shooting is deeded legally justified, modifications to the weapon are irrelevant.

 

[Bartman3562]

I've read that sort of thing dozens of times. I don't own a single gun that hasn't been modified in one way or another. Could be just swapping a plastic guide rod out for a stainless one, or installing a totally different trigger assembly.

You could say night sights should be on the do-not-install list because it helps you acquire a target easier in low light. Or that grip tape shouldn't be used because it makes the gun easier to hold and therefore more deadly.

Edit: my Sig P938 is all stock.

The wife and I both carry 938's and both have s/s triggers and colt mustang reduced power hammer springs. That and a good polish and lube make for a really nice, 5 lb trigger pull. Really like this gun. Would love to own a S&W if they would just build one.

 

[vipermd]

Yes the article may have been out but it sounds pretty convincing on paper.

Suggesting the article is outdated? 9/2013? The article says trigger mods are bad, changing sights is bad following that logic ( as was stated above ) tape on a grip is bad, cleaning excess oil from the factory is bad,NS that were supposed to be put on the gun were not due to factory mistake, would it be wrong to put them on to correct the mistake? Having a gunsmith "clean" up an action was suggested to be bad, with that logic we all have to stop using are firearms since each cycle in DA smooths the action! I received a new Taurus titanium ( j - frame) 38 special DAO with a gritty, heavy trigger. A gunsmith has not touched it, but it has a much more pleasant trigger. Snap caps, 25 with the RT hand then 25 with the left, repeat. Somewhere around 250-300 with each hand I went to 50 pulls. Somewhere about 1-1.5 K pulls I started working on more deliberate, dedicated "presses", the action was indeed smoother, continued dry fire and live fire continue to improve the gun, my hand strength, and the number of times in a row that I can dry fire with a dime on top of the frame has increased ( note it is best to use snap caps, since even with a perfect press the force can knock it off.) After reading this thread, this morning's and other's you have started I have a few suggestions. Apex/no apex, lighter/heavier, mag capacity, etc are all questions you have to decide on your own. Lots of great people on here but I doubt any will be at your trial for 15 vs 10 rd in the city( law says 15). If 50 people said I know the author and he is ( insert any negative comment ) would that made you feel better about an apex kit?? It is good to think about these things before they happen, but you ultimately have to make the decision to pull the trigger or not. You will be arrested, firearm in evidence, lawyers, money, these first 4 are certain, jail, civil trial possible. After you pull the trigger your life will change that is certain, how much?? I do not know since I am not you, but you must make the decision and maintain your spirit, and be very sure that you can use your weapon before you strap on 2 and head to Humbolt Park. There is not a wrong or right answer just that you know why and maintain your conviction. Be Safe,

 

[marathonrunner]

legality

In a clean shoot situation, which should be the only times a weapon is pointed and fired at someone, a modified trigger or any other modifications will have zero legal bearing on the situation. I challenge anyone including the author of the article to find one case where a weapon modification became a legally relevant issue in an actual case where the shooting was deemed justified. Hint: it doesn't exist. If the shooting is deeded legally justified, modifications to the weapon are irrelevant.

Is this an opinion or are you professing this to be fact? I get so many different answers from so many people. It's frustrating that we can put a man on the moon but we can't answer or find case law to confirm or deny such incidences. oh well

 

[marathonrunner]

questions

Suggesting the article is outdated? 9/2013? The article says trigger mods are bad, changing sights is bad following that logic ( as was stated above ) tape on a grip is bad, cleaning excess oil from the factory is bad,NS that were supposed to be put on the gun were not due to factory mistake, would it be wrong to put them on to correct the mistake? Having a gunsmith "clean" up an action was suggested to be bad, with that logic we all have to stop using are firearms since each cycle in DA smooths the action! I received a new Taurus titanium ( j - frame) 38 special DAO with a gritty, heavy trigger. A gunsmith has not touched it, but it has a much more pleasant trigger. Snap caps, 25 with the RT hand then 25 with the left, repeat. Somewhere around 250-300 with each hand I went to 50 pulls. Somewhere about 1-1.5 K pulls I started working on more deliberate, dedicated "presses", the action was indeed smoother, continued dry fire and live fire continue to improve the gun, my hand strength, and the number of times in a row that I can dry fire with a dime on top of the frame has increased ( note it is best to use snap caps, since even with a perfect press the force can knock it off.) After reading this thread, this morning's and other's you have started I have a few suggestions. Apex/no apex, lighter/heavier, mag capacity, etc are all questions you have to decide on your own. Lots of great people on here but I doubt any will be at your trial for 15 vs 10 rd in the city( law says 15). If 50 people said I know the author and he is ( insert any negative comment ) would that made you feel better about an apex kit?? It is good to think about these things before they happen, but you ultimately have to make the decision to pull the trigger or not. You will be arrested, firearm in evidence, lawyers, money, these first 4 are certain, jail, civil trial possible. After you pull the trigger your life will change that is certain, how much?? I do not know since I am not you, but you must make the decision and maintain your spirit, and be very sure that you can use your weapon before you strap on 2 and head to Humbolt Park. There is not a wrong or right answer just that you know why and maintain your conviction. Be Safe,

I don't think there is a dumb question. Not all owners are experts and I like to be cautious as I go about doing things. I am very conservative and that is how I keep myself good. I rather know the facts then assume anything but get your point

 

[southcoast]

Is this an opinion or are you professing this to be fact? I get so many different answers from so many people. It's frustrating that we can put a man on the moon but we can't answer or find case law to confirm or deny such incidences. oh well

In the hundreds of years we have had millions of guns modifications and lawyers, yet this has never happened. There are good reasons why not. As a lawyer I would wager a large fortune it never will. Take that for what you will.

 

[ironhead7544]

I use box stock guns. Adding custom sights and grips should be no problem as they can increase your accuracy making a missed shot less likely. A smoothed out trigger can also help accuracy. I would not lighten the trigger from the factory. If you cant hit with that trigger, get a different gun. Most people do not understand gun modification but they all have heard the term "hair trigger". That looks like an accident looking for a place to happen to them. If you have to go to court, you need all the help you can get. Even if you dont get charged, you will probably get sued. JMHO.

 

[Llando88]

Interesting question.

I found this author's take very comprehensive:

Gun Modifications, Light Triggers and Reloaded Ammunition

His summary:

"1) On a production gun (not a custom gun), leave the trigger pull weight alone.

If you want a lighter trigger, get a different gun, but don't lighten the trigger below the factory settings. Smoothing the trigger pull and eliminating over travel should be fine, as long as you don't lighten the pull weight.

2) If using a high-end custom pistol, a 4-pound trigger pull weight is the industry standard, and anything lighter could be argued as unreasonable. For folks like Scott, why not set up another Wilson Combat 1911 pistol with a 4- to 5-pound trigger and use that one for self-defense, and the other for the range? What a great excuse to buy another gun!

3) If you modify your gun it is best to have that modification performed by a competent gunsmith, one who will be willing to go to court and testify why he performed the modification. You had better be personally prepared to logically explain why that modification was done, too.

4) Never deactivate a safety device on a gun you use for self defense. If you just cannot live with whatever safety device you want to deactivate, then simply change to a different weapon type that does not have that feature.

5) Use only factory ammunition for self defense and buy it in sufficient quantity that if exemplars are needed for testing, they are available.

6) Leave the cute, custom paint jobs, engraving and cartoon logos off your serious self-defense guns. The place for those affectations is at the range, not in the courtroom."

I think this advice is worth considering.

 

[one eye joe]

I WOULD IMAGINE THAT YOU WOULD BE ON FIRMER GROUND, IF YOU HAD SENT THE GUN BACK TO THE MANUFACTURER FOR A CUSTOM TUNE OR PACKAGE THAT THEY OFFER. NOT SO SURE ABOUT BUBBA WITH A DREMEL TOOL………

 

[walkin' trails]

With Ferguson,MO in mind, consider that there may politically charged incidents out there and any one of us could find ourselves in the middle. I think that in most cases, an Apex-type duty trigger modification could be overcome with a competent trial lawyer and strong expert witness testimony. That stuff costs a lot of money - not that depending your life in accordance with the law with a bone stock pistol is going to be cheap. Use common sense. If you liVe in an area where the political winds blow against the 2A and CCW, just be aware that the deck could be stacked against you. And furthermore, anyone familiar with most carry pistols is going to be able to tell if the trigger has been modified. Even a cop who is generally uninterested in guns can tell if the trigger on your G23 appears to be the same or different than the one on his/her issue G23. I wish this wasn't an issue cause I'm starting to like the aftermarket triggers...