CCW Nightmare: What Would I Do?

federali

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Much of the CCW discussions here and on other forums center around the "best" gun, the "best" caliber, the "best" ammo, etc.
It makes for interesting reading and the occasionally emotional defense of our personal selections. Most of our theoretical adversaries tend to be home intruders, muggers and occasionally the unhinged motorist in the grips of road-rage.

Yet, a threat exists to the CCW and off-duty LEOs alike and which does not receive the amount of tactical thought and planning needed if we are to survive such an encounter. I'm talking about the armed robbery of the local convenience store, often within minutes of your home. By "convenience," I mean any local store from the candy and tobacco shop, the bakery, liquor store, gas station, the general store, etc.

Much of what we know or think we know about robberies is gleaned from television and the movies, where a stereotypically desperate individual, in need of a fix, pulls a gun and robs the nearest retail establishment. Knowledge is also gleaned from actual surveillance tapes capturing robberies and subsequently shown on the evening news. In most instances, the cash register is the primary target, not us.

In the fictionalized version, the ruggedly handsome good guy or disarming fem-fatale usually comes out on top using a slick tongue or gunplay that would make Jerry Maculek scratch his head in awe and wonderment. As every police firearms instructor advises: never take tactical lessons from television or the movies.

There are four retail robberies that come to mind in which events did not follow the usual script and which you should be familiar with. Much information on these four particular robberies is available online and I encourage you to spend a few minutes reading about them while placing yourself in the middle of such a robbery. What would you have done?

1. Medford (NY) Pharmacy, 8/19/2011, in which a robber, seeking drugs, executed a pharmacist, a clerk and two innocent patrons in the wrong place at the wrong time.
4 People Killed In Shooting At Haven Drugs Pharmacy In Medford « CBS New York

2. Seaford (NY) drug store robbery, 1/2012, in which both a retired police officer and an off-duty BATFE agent responded, the retiree killing the BATFE agent in a mistaken identity situation.
Investigation Continues Into Deadly Seaford Pharmacy Robbery « CBS New York

3. Seacrest Diner robbery, 1982: a large, suburban diner taken over by five armed men, two of whom stationed themselves at the door, instantly transforming patrons into hostages. Besides robbery, hostages were forced at gunpoint to engage in sex acts with each other. To my recollection, an off-duty officer patronizing the diner elected to surround his gun rather than resist.
Herald-Journal - Google News Archive Search

4. Radio Shack Robbery, lower Manhattan (NY) 1992: a retired police sergeant is slain in a gun battle with four, possibly five robbers.JUSTICE AT LAST FOR SLAIN COP | New York Post

These are just four tactical nightmares and there are scores of others. These four are easily found, detailed online so there's no point in my summarizing each incident at length.

Here are a few tactical thoughts:
1. Re-familiarize yourself with Jeff Cooper's "Condition Yellow."

2. When visiting a convenience store, stop for a moment and observe the interior before entering. Does everything look normal? There's no excuse for walking into a robbery-in-progress.

3. Don't take action if there are people behind you that you cannot identify or control.

4. If you see a robber, there may be an accomplice. If you see two robbers, there may be a third accomplice, etc.

5. Do not automatically take action. A valid response is to do nothing, especially if you can't figure out who is who.

6. Don't assume that if someone produces a gun, he's a bad guy. He may be an LEO or a CCW, just like you.

7. An idling car out front with driver behind the wheel. Most likely someone waiting for a companion who went into the store but on occasion, a getaway driver. This should be a warning to open your eyes and to use them.

8. Don't give chase. Your use of deadly force is more easily defended within the premises, Once you begin a pursuit, you are no longer acting in self-defense, the bread-and-butter defense of the CCW.

9. You'll likely be held civilly accountable for wrongful use of force and possibly for injured bystanders, even those injured by the robber.

10. If someone surrenders to you, maintain a safe distance. Do not position yourself between the robber and his only apparent means of escape. Do not attempt to restrain them. If they are cooperative, put them face down on the floor, spread-eagled and have them look away from you.

11. Make sure you don't have a gun in your hand when police arrive. Having the guy on the floor looking away prevents him from taking action when he's momentarily no longer covered.

12. Last but not least, something I've never seen discussed in any forum: if you "capture" the robber, intruder, mugger, you are now responsible for their safety and you may not allow your friends or strangers to use them as a heavy bag or a soccer ball. If you stand idly by, he sues you and wins. If those irate bystanders succeed in killing your captive, you may become an accomplice to manslaughter. The faster you can turn the miscreant over to the police the better off you are.

13: Lawyers' advice: never make citizens' arrests.

14. I nearly forgot to mention it but you need to be intimately familiar with the laws regarding use of force wherever you carry and wherever you may have to use force. You must also know the political climate as official responses to very similar circumstance can vary widely.
 
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There is a very big difference between an off duty LEO and a citizen with a CCW. The citizen does not have the obligation of protecting others the LEO has... Being a good witness should be high on your list of "what to do". Most robbers want to take their intended goods rather it be cash or other property and get out of dodge - of course the taking by force constitutes the robbery rather than just theft. If force is not used and one of the good guys fires a shot then you may be looking at trouble. If force is used / or not and a shot is fired and an innocent is hit - more trouble.... you could either hit or kill the bad guy and still be in trouble. Save any heroic action for threat of grave bodily harm to yourself first and then others. Carrying is serious business and if you don't have a plan, then the consequences could be financially devastating if not worse.
 
Very good points.

And thanks for posting links.

I try to stay in condition yellow as much as possible (sometimes I get lazy. :o) but I always try to be in yellow if not orange when in a bank, gas station or similar place where a robbery is more likely to happen.
 
Much of the CCW discussions here and on other forums center around the "best" gun, the "best" caliber, the "best" ammo, etc.
It makes for interesting reading and the occasionally emotional defense of our personal selections. Most of our theoretical adversaries tend to be home intruders, muggers and occasionally the unhinged motorist in the grips of road-rage.

Yet, a threat exists to the CCW and off-duty LEOs alike and which does not receive the amount of tactical thought and planning needed if we are to survive such an encounter. I'm talking about the armed robbery of the local convenience store, often within minutes of your home. By "convenience," I mean any local store from the candy and tobacco shop, the bakery, liquor store, gas station, the general store, etc.

Much of what we know or think we know about robberies is gleaned from television and the movies, where a stereotypically desperate individual, in need of a fix, pulls a gun and robs the nearest retail establishment. Knowledge is also gleaned from actual surveillance tapes capturing robberies and subsequently shown on the evening news. In most instances, the cash register is the primary target, not us.

In the fictionalized version, the ruggedly handsome good guy or disarming fem-fatale usually comes out on top using a slick tongue or gunplay that would make Jerry Maculek scratch his head in awe and wonderment. As every police firearms instructor advises: never take tactical lessons from television or the movies.

There are four retail robberies that come to mind in which events did not follow the usual script and which you should be familiar with. Much information on these four particular robberies is available online and I encourage you to spend a few minutes reading about them while placing yourself in the middle of such a robbery. What would you have done?

1. Medford (NY) Pharmacy, 8/19/2011, in which a robber, seeking drugs, executed a pharmacist, a clerk and two innocent patrons in the wrong place at the wrong time.
4 People Killed In Shooting At Haven Drugs Pharmacy In Medford « CBS New York

2. Seaford (NY) drug store robbery, 1/2012, in which both a retired police officer and an off-duty BATFE agent responded, the retiree killing the BATFE agent in a mistaken identity situation.
Investigation Continues Into Deadly Seaford Pharmacy Robbery « CBS New York

3. Seacrest Diner robbery, 1982: a large, suburban diner taken over by five armed men, two of whom stationed themselves at the door, instantly transforming patrons into hostages. Besides robbery, hostages were forced at gunpoint to engage in sex acts with each other. To my recollection, an off-duty officer patronizing the diner elected to surround his gun rather than resist.
Herald-Journal - Google News Archive Search

4. Radio Shack Robbery, lower Manhattan (NY) 1992: a retired police sergeant is slain in a gun battle with four, possibly five robbers.JUSTICE AT LAST FOR SLAIN COP | New York Post

These are just four tactical nightmares and there are scores of others. These four are easily found, detailed online so there's no point in my summarizing each incident at length.

Here are a few tactical thoughts:
1. Re-familiarize yourself with Jeff Cooper's "Condition Yellow."

2. When visiting a convenience store, stop for a moment and observe the interior before entering. Does everything look normal? There's no excuse for walking into a robbery-in-progress.

3. Don't take action if there are people behind you that you cannot identify or control.

4. If you see a robber, there may be an accomplice. If you see two robbers, there may be a third accomplice, etc.

5. Do not automatically take action. A valid response is to do nothing, especially if you can't figure out who is who.

6. Don't assume that if someone produces a gun, he's a bad guy. He may be an LEO or a CCW, just like you.

7. An idling car out front with driver behind the wheel. Most likely someone waiting for a companion who went into the store but on occasion, a getaway driver. This should be a warning to open your eyes and to use them.

8. Don't give chase. Your use of deadly force is more easily defended within the premises, Once you begin a pursuit, you are no longer acting in self-defense, the bread-and-butter defense of the CCW.

9. You'll likely be held civilly accountable for wrongful use of force and possibly for injured bystanders, even those injured by the robber.

10. If someone surrenders to you, maintain a safe distance. Do not position yourself between the robber and his only apparent means of escape. Do not attempt to restrain them. If they are cooperative, put them face down on the floor, spread-eagled and have them look away from you.

11. Make sure you don't have a gun in your hand when police arrive. Having the guy on the floor looking away prevents him from taking action when he's momentarily no longer covered.

12. Last but not least, something I've never seen discussed in any forum: if you "capture" the robber, intruder, mugger, you are now responsible for their safety and you may not allow your friends or strangers to use them as a heavy bag or a soccer ball. If you stand idly by, he sues you and wins. If those irate bystanders succeed in killing your captive, you may become an accomplice to manslaughter. The faster you can turn the miscreant over to the police the better off you are.

13: Lawyers' advice: never make citizens' arrests.

14. I nearly forgot to mention it but you need to be intimately familiar with the laws regarding use of force wherever you carry and wherever you may have to use force. You must also know the political climate as official responses to very similar circumstance can vary widely.

I am still contemplating the that part you wrote about the "fem-fatale usually comes out on top using a slick tongue".
 
As an ordinary citizen, I've never been comfortable with taking custody of someone if they surrender.

I'd much rather the bad guy runs away, preferably before I shoot, but even after being wounded.

I suppose I might not have a choice if they don't try to run and put down their weapons, but I wouldn't order them to stop or threaten to shoot them again if they run. I'd rather the BG get's the heck out of Dodge and ends the threat.

I'd like to let the police take people into custody. I'm not trained for that.
 
As with most people, I don't know what I would do without knowing the particulars of the situation. The purpose, number and demeanor of the bad guy(s), weapons displayed, layout, number of people in the store, am I being observed, etc., etc.

In conversations with pro-right to defend/castle doctrine LE and legal people on this subject, the answer comes back to "depends". Their (and my) thoughts are, if the guy just wants to grab some cash or smokes and get out fast, get a good description and let him go. If it escalates beyond that, your training, or lack of it, will determine the response. Spraying bullets around a store full of innocent people is a nightmare situation. Training, even basic practical shooting drills, and situation awareness to avoid surprises, are essential. Along with an occasional prayer that you never find yourself in that position.
 
I'm not Matt Dillon, Steve McGarret or the Lone Flippin' Ranger. Unless my life is directly threatened or the holdup guy begins shooting, it's not my job to apprehend him and prone him out, much less punch his ticket.

This is a case for the professionals, not an elderly amateur.

I will, however, have my hand on my pocket-carried CC gun, on the off chance that things really start to go to hell and I have no choice but to use it.
 
When old bear was young bear, his off shift, plan if he stumbled into an agg. Robbery were. Do nothing unless B/G start shooting or marching folks into a back or storage room. When B/G gets cash and started to leave store, young bear to shoot B/G in back, then yell “police” you’re under arrest. I never had to use this but it sounded like a workable plan at the time.
Today acting as old bear, keep eyes wide open, note details, and plan on being the best whiteness I can be. Now if B/G starts to hurt someone or marching folks into back or storage room, then ya may very well need to do something.
 
CCW

I agree on everything Ken158 said except for one thing. The US Supreme Court has ruled that a police officer has no duty to protect a person, whether on duty and especially off duty. The officer creates the duty to protect when he takes control of the situation, such as yelling for everyone to freeze. An off duty officer, like a CCW person, they should be an observer only if possible. Taking action with your weapon should be done only when your life or the life of someone is under immediate threat.
 
Apparently the supreme court never worked under Sheriff Joe Harris or they would have known any deputy would be armed at all times he was outside of his own home and he was never "off duty" just sometimes he was not getting paid!

Yes there is different protocol if you are out of uniform but your responsibility was "to protect and serve"!

After 39 years I still put on my CCW every morning and take it off at bedtime. I hope to never have to use it but like a fire extinguisher it is available and functional.
 
A well thought-out reminder for those who carry.
Also, for those of us who are mobility-challenged, we
need to remain Alert to our surroundings. I find that
my situational awareness suffers from being too-attuned
to just walking. I have to continually remind myself to
Pay Attention. It's already obvious to anyone around, what
an easy target I make when in Condition White.
JMHO, TACC1.
 
15. Plan ahead to avoid SHTF situations.
Resupply gas and booze in daylight at busy places.
Use drive-thru services and online services for banking and pharmacy.
Avoid places that handle a lot of cash transactions.
And soon, buy on Amazon with drone delivery to your door.
 
These are definitely tough scenarios to know for sure what to do. The problem is that once you've determined that there is a for-sure immediate threat (ie. BG starts executing people) then it may be too late (ie. you may be executed). I would think the presence of a bad guy with a weapon in hand (means) in your vicinity (opportunity), telling people to get on the floor or whatever (intent) would be enough to justify aggressive counter-measurements if you could do so. I'm not sure a "reasonable man" would be required (in my hypothetical scenario) to wait for the bad guy to take a shot or lead people to the back room. I'm in no way looking to take a life, but I think Jeff Cooper also suggested (paraphrasing) that the most likely way to survive armed aggression is with immediate, decisive, and yes violent, counter-aggression.

I hope I never have to make that sort of split second decision!
 
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Other than to protect myself or somebody to whom I feel a duty of care, I'm going to be VERY circumspect about involving myself in a violent crime situation.

I'm going to have to be EXTREMELY confident that I know the players and where they are.
  • I'm not a cop.
  • I don't want to be a cop.
  • I don't want people to think I'm a cop.
That having been said, I have ZERO expectation of being "protected" by the police as an individual. And NO plan I've ever had, have or will have in the future involves trusting in the mental stability, sound judgment or good character of armed robbers.

The solution to the credible, immediate threat of deadly force is the overwhelming application of deadly force until the threat is ended. That doesn't mean that I need to be as impulsive as the person who's presenting the threat.

Just like revenge, self-defense is a dish best served cold. I am nothing if not calculating.
 
I'm not Matt Dillon, Steve McGarret or the Lone Flippin' Ranger. Unless my life is directly threatened or the holdup guy begins shooting, it's not my job to apprehend him and prone him out, much less punch his ticket.

This is a case for the professionals, not an elderly amateur.

^^ Exactly ^^. Federali, don't overthink this. Your CPL is for personal protection, not Defender of the Realm.
 
I generally agree with this post but the "duty to protect" question is continually misrepresented...not just in this thread. The SCOTUS decision was correct; LEO's simply cannot be everywhere. Or they could be and all of us would seriously complain about our taxes. :eek:

That said, most professional LEO's are obligated to take appropriate action(s)...particularly within their jurisdiction and particularly when a felony is being committed.

During the majority of my career it was mandatory that I be armed off-duty in a very, very large area geographically. Further, I was required to act in jurisdiction...an enormous area. That said, common sense dictates appropriate action(s.) We were not expected to bite off more than we could chew. FTR, I found myself involved in off-duty situations far more times than I wanted. In all cases there was no other option(s) immediately available.

Be safe.


I agree on everything Ken158 said except for one thing. The US Supreme Court has ruled that a police officer has no duty to protect a person, whether on duty and especially off duty. The officer creates the duty to protect when he takes control of the situation, such as yelling for everyone to freeze. An off duty officer, like a CCW person, they should be an observer only if possible. Taking action with your weapon should be done only when your life or the life of someone is under immediate threat.
 
I am still contemplating the that part you wrote about the "fem-fatale usually comes out on top using a slick tongue".

Speaking of "slips", that one is possibly a Freudian slip on the part of Mr. Federali.
cheers.gif
 
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