First LE Agency To Adopt S&W Pistols?

[bwh]

I seem to remember that long ago, shrouded in the mists of time, before plastic pistols and back when real handguns guns revolved, there was a large police agency that adopted a S&W autoloader. I believe it was the Illinois State Police and, at the time, it was considered a groudbreaking move.

Does anyone have any info on this adoption? Is there good, concise history of ISP's experience with the early S&W autoloaders posted anywhere on the web? Was it a good experience? What model did they adopt? What modifications/product improvements came out of this experience? How did the individual officers like what they were issued? How well did the ammo perform?

So much of the history of the LE adoption of many other brands/models is well known (Glock, Beretta, SIG, later S&W models, etc.) but I can't find much info on the pistol that apparently started it all.

No real purpose in this - just want to expand my general knowledge of my favorite pistol manufacturer!

 

[george minze]

ispcapt a member here was a Captain on the ISP during those early years with the S&W model 39 as a duty weapon. I bought one trough the ISP when I was a Greater St. Louis Metro Squad Detective in the late 60s. I still have one later purchase that has been given a action and reliability job by (Actions by T) Sugerland Texas. Best looking pistol ever made in US. IMHO

 

[Zebulon]

Illinois State Police (ISP)...............Zebulon

 

[ispcapt]

The ISP adopted the Mod 39 in 1967 with it finally getting out to the Troops in 1968. The adoption was due to the efforts of Sgt Louis Seman who was the head range officer for the dept. Salt Lake City PD soon followed when they adopted the 39.
The changes that resulted in the 39-2 were due to our range officers working with S&W to make improvements.
We carried the 39 and 39-2 until 1981 when we went to the 439. W then went to 459/469 but I can't recall the exact year. I was already carrying my personally owned 459 so when the ISP went to the 459 I stayed with my personal one since I'd had it tuned and it was a shooter. I went into plain clothes in 1988 and was issued a 469 so the swap to 459/469 came prior to 1988. In the early 90s we went to the 3rd gen S&W issuing 5904s to the uniforms and 6904 to those in plain clothes who wanted them.
In 1997-98 the director decided we were going to .40. We began testing various makes and models. When done we asked for bids from the top 3 contenders, SIG, S&W, and Glock. Glock's bid was 1/2 that of S&W and 1/4 the bid from SIG so we ended up going to Glock 22/23 in 1999 with the dept fully transitioned to Glock by 2000.

 

[bwh]

Ispcapt,

Thanks for the reply! If I may ask, can you provide any info on the 9mm ammo first carried in the Model 39? Was it HP? FMJ? Were there any street issues with the carry ammo? Did it work as well as what it replaced?

 

[max]

At one time, the issue round was a +P+ jsp round. It was by Winchester and showed up at gunshows here in Illinois from time to time.

 

[ispcapt]

Ispcapt,

Thanks for the reply! If I may ask, can you provide any info on the 9mm ammo first carried in the Model 39? Was it HP? FMJ? Were there any street issues with the carry ammo? Did it work as well as what it replaced?

You're going to make my brain hurt trying to remember.
Until the late 70s the rds were round nose, soft point type ammo. W-W was the main supplier. W-W had a semi jacketed 125 gr round nose that had an exposed lead nose. The round nose design enabled better feeding but expansion was pretty iffy at best. There wasn't much HP ammo to choose from. In the late 70s we went to Federal 95 gr SP. It expanded really well and clocked at 1400 fps, sometimes a bit better on a given day. While it expanded well, it didn't hold up well when going against vehicle windshields and other tough barriers. In about 1980 we went with 115 Silvertip (same as the FBI used in their Miami shootout a few years later) for a few months until 2 Troops were involved in a shootout with a biker near Joliet, IL. The performance wasn't good but fortunately neither of our Troops were injured. The Silvertip was immediately pulled off the street and we went with Federal 115 BP and later BPLE. Can't recall the year but then W-W 115 HP and later developed the W-W 115 +P+. We carried the +P+ for several years, having very good success, until we went to .40.

 

[safearm]

Waukegan PD in northeast Illinois also adopted the Model 39, and also carried them in a cross-draw full flap holster. They converted to the Model 19 in the mid-to-late 70's after an controversial accidental shooting that was blamed on a design defect of the Model 39. A detective, who also was a member of the department pistol team, was in a foot chase after a suspected burglar, carrying his Model 39 in his right hand, safety off, uncocked. The detective tripped and the gun fell in front of him, striking the muzzle, and discharged. The bullet ricocheted off the pavement and struck the suspect square in the back of the head, killing him instantly.

 

[BUFF]

Interestingly, the Salt Lake City (UT) P.D. switched away from the S&W Model 39 9mm semiautomatic pistol and "backwards" to the S&W Model 64 .38 Special revolver in about 1978 or so. The department had a couple of "unintended discharges" with them that were variously blamed on the pistol design and/or the instruction in it's use provided by S&W. One of the accidents resulted in the tragic paralyzation of an officer who was on a surveillance detail when he or is partner (I forget which) placed their pistol on the dashboard of the van they were in and it went off.

One of my neighbors was a patrolman with SLCPD in those days and I used to ride along occasionally with him on graveyard shifts while a college student. He wasn't a 'gun' person and always disliked the M-39. He had several 'unintended discharges' and stoppages during qualifications, including at least once when he was holstering it, claiming he had his finger nowhere near the trigger! The department would issue him a new one each time he had a problem; I think he went through 3 or 4 at least during the time. He had just been issued a brand new 39-2 when they decided to replace them with the revolvers. He was happy to see it go.

I could never understand how he had them go off without the involvement of his trigger finger. I think he might have been a little mistaken there, but...

I have had several, all -2's, and while I never put a really lot of rounds through any of them, they all worked quite well and were an easy pistol to shoot. They, and the double-column magazine Model 59, were really pioneers of the American law enforcement move away from the double action revolver.

 

[DCW]

Another ILL. S.P. Model 39

When my Web crawler found the above the only thing known to this prospective buyer was that the offered was a S&W Model 39 and, for that matter, wasn't even sure the handgun was still available (I've learned a lot of sellers, no matter individual or dealer, often don't clean up once-offered listed items subsequently sold).

As I scanned the listing's single photograph it was framed large enough to show the gun's two magazines and had enough remaining room for a semi rig's tractor, and perhaps even the reefer, too.

In short, the picture was hardly good enough in detail to confirm it was a 39. For all I knew, it could've been a pre-39 or a 439.

Halfheartedly reading the description it told me nothing I didn't already know: Taken straight from some book were the technical descriptions; nothing else . . . except . . .

A couple of lines below the description were the following "Stamped IL state police (ILSP) and engraved with 'weapon' number" (SIC).

Nothing else. Didn't even have a period (.).

Simultaneously dropping jaw to table and attempting not to fall from chair, my hand and mouse found the "Buy" button.

For three days absolutely nothing. Nothing. The web page's "Sold" sign solely guarding the page was the only thing indicating that anyone at all was at least attempting to buy a weapon whose picture was just about worthless.

Finally, word came through. It was mine if I still wanted it, but only if I was really sure I wanted it because nobody else wanted it. It was rough looking, and it had that "Illinois State Police" stamping on it.

"Are you sure?" the email asked plaintively.

You betcha I wanted it. The FFL flew via email, the money order sent via overnight and I waited, not really knowing if some idiot had taken a stamping kit and put the info on the gun, or even if the gun was a Model 39.

It wasn't and it was, if the reader catches my drift.

I've got a S&W Double Action Automatic Pistol ("pre-39") and this ISP means more to me.

I am flat-out honored to own it.

Period.

 

[Doug M.]

I don't think the ISP models were "Pre-39"s, if there even is such a critter, given that the adopted them in the late 60s. Looking at some of the descriptions of the AD/NDs above, I find it amazing that these are the first and only of which I have ever heard that were blamed on the pistol. ISP had a ton of them and shot a lot of ammo, and I do not recall ever hearing of them having trouble with ADs (as opposed to NDs). There are a lot of things I don't like about these pistols (DA/SA being the primary problem), but I don't recall any problems of the sort described.

ISP shot them so much that they became the source of a lot of the improvements S&W made from the initial 39s to what would become the 3rd generation pistols. They also were the reason for the first really good 9mm JHP ammo, the 115 +P+, and its successor, the 127 +P+. Both rounds had very good records in shootings. I bought a couple cases of the 115 +P+ on the contract in the early 90s and carried it for duty ammo for quite a while. It was so cheap in that volume I did not even buy practice/training ammo. I also carried the 127 +P+ later, and still have some of each left as I recall.

 

[AKAOV1MAN]

Soon after the ISP adopted the 39, the Chicago PD placed it on the approved carry list for off duty and BUG. However the order required to weapon to be carried with the "hammer down on an empty chamber", same as for the 1911 and BHP. Needless to say that portion of the order was honored more in the breach than the observance. Many detectives and plainclothes officers carried it as a primary, and left their "legit" service weapon in their lockers, or more prudently, packed a M36, or later an M60, or one of the LW J Frames.
There were some NDs, actually quite a few-with revolvers and shotguns too. Even today if you walk into a Chicago PD facility you may see photo of the mayor or police superintendent in a peculiar place, like high up in a corner or some such, it is probably covering a bullet hole.
Actually if I recall correctly(and I do) the CPD had one of the lowest hit rates in the US. If a CPD officer fired his weapon intentionally he hit the intended target less than 16 percent of the time, if he had an ND, he hit someone slightly over 18 percent of the time. Go wonder.............

 

[scwv67]

Very interesting thread! Thanks to all contributors.

 

[shawn mccarver]

One of my neighbors was a patrolman with SLCPD in those days and I used to ride along occasionally with him on graveyard shifts while a college student. He wasn't a 'gun' person and always disliked the M-39. He had several 'unintended discharges' and stoppages during qualifications, including at least once when he was holstering it, claiming he had his finger nowhere near the trigger! The department would issue him a new one each time he had a problem; I think he went through 3 or 4 at least during the time. He had just been issued a brand new 39-2 when they decided to replace them with the revolvers. He was happy to see it go.

The solution here, with all due respect to your neighbor, was not to give him a new Model 39 every time he demonstrated that he was apparently brain dead or lacking sufficient intelligence to manage a life-saving piece of his official equipment. Instead, the solution was to give his job to someone with more aptitude for the job.

 

[GaryS]

We had a dispatcher that blamed her inattentiveness and missing calls from field units on her headsets. After five replacement headsets, they told her that they were going to send her for a hearing test to see if she should remain employed. Suddenly, the problem seemed to disappear.

I will say that when I first saw a Model 39 back in the mid 1970s, it baffled the heck out of me. The gun wasn't mine, it belonged to a police officer I knew. It was his personal firearm, all departments in my area still issued revolvers. It just seemed to be very complex to operate. Of course I had no training and in retrospect if he or someone had given me 20 minutes of instruction I would have been fine.

The solution here, with all due respect to your neighbor, was not to give him a new Model 39 every time he demonstrated that he was apparently brain dead or lacking sufficient intelligence to manage a life-saving piece of his official equipment. Instead, the solution was to give his job to someone with more aptitude for the job.

 

[HCH]

Warwick RI adopted the M39 in 1961. Many departments issued the 39 early on, but people took notice when the ISP issued them in '67.

 

[robotoid]

The detective tripped and the gun fell in front of him, striking the muzzle, and discharged. The bullet ricocheted off the pavement and struck the suspect square in the back of the head, killing him instantly.

Yeah, that might be what his report said, but I highly doubt that's what "really" happened.

 

[Doug M.]

Soon after the ISP adopted the 39, the Chicago PD placed it on the approved carry list for off duty and BUG. However the order required to weapon to be carried with the "hammer down on an empty chamber", same as for the 1911 and BHP.

*
Oh lord help me, that is so clownshoes. Not only useless for fighting, but far more dangerous than doing it right. Bosses who give orders like that should be fired for dereliction and incompetence with all possible haste, and then given a trespass notice and a boot in the backside.

 

[imarangemaster]

Not to practice necromancy reviving an old thread, but Salinas, CA PD was carrying Model 59s in about 1974. When I was at the academy in 1975, their guys all had 59s. I bought one as an off-duty piece after firing theirs. Bellevue, WA carried Model 59s not much longer after that. When I got there in 1981, they had had them for several years. They were the first agency in Washington state to carry autoloaders.

The first S&W 9mm I ever saw (or shot) was my cousin's steel frame early model 39. That was in the 1960''s when I was a kid. He was a US Postal Inspector, and carried it as his off duty "in the vehicle glove box weapon."

 

[Richard McMillan]

The Illinois State Police adopted the Model 39 in 1967 after a two year evaluation process. The agency's first order of 500 guns were Model 39s, but the followup order of 600 guns was Model 39-2s. However, the State Police objected to the two different extractors found in the different models. Therefore, the original order of Model 39s were returned to the factory and retrofitted with a unique interim coil spring loaded extractor. Other police agencies also were given the option of having their guns fitted with the interim extractor. Many of these reworks will have the serial number stamped under the rear sight. Illinois State Police Model 39 handguns are easy to identify because they are stamped on the left side of the frame " ILL. S. P." followed by a property number. In 1972, the Illinois State Police placed a third order for 500 of the Smith & Wesson Model 59.