Why I don't Open Carry

Amen, Dave. I have noticed, in many interviews with would be and career armed holdup men, that they were deterred by the presence of an armed person. (One never hears about this, because nothing happens.)
On the other hand, NONE of them ever shot someone right off the bat when they spotted the person open carrying. That is so rare it's almost urban legend rather than fact. It's certainly rarer than the deterrant factor.

As example, when I was delivering cash payroll on the wharves in New Orleans to ship's captains,usually after 10 pm often in the wee hours, I openly carried, dressed in civvies. Never once was I approached. I got the task after three previous agents had been held up, beaten and robbed. Two of whom couldn't get to their concealed weapon because they never saw it coming.

Addendum: the only time I was approached by two men intent on robbing me was down by the Orange Street wharf and when I produced a concealed sawed off 12 guage from a grocery bag, they departed in haste, but y'all have heard that story....
 
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... if you're in a store and armed robbers come in and they see you open carrying you are most definitely going to be shot and be shot first.
I don't think you can support such an absolute statement, especially since we have at least one documented case where two armed robbers preferred to wait in their car until the lone OCer left the store they intended to rob. I guess that's one advantage of armed robbery as a career choice- failing to perform is advantageous to advancement. ;)

I think there's a big advantage to the element of surprise and you don't have that with open carry. Yes, crooks seeing an armed person present may delay their committing a crime but what's even more of a deterrent in my opinion is crooks thinking armed people are present but not knowing who they are.
In the old Hollywood movies, that was true. We all remember the scenes where the thugs would taunt their prey for several minutes, confident they would meet no resistance. Then the protagonist would surprise them by drawing his trusty hand cannon and saying something witty.

The problem is- that's just Hollywood (and do you really think it wise to base your safety plan on something you saw in a movie?). It seldom goes down like that. Usually the mugger, in blatant disregard of all four rules for safe gun handling, will employ actual surprise; and he wants in and out as fast as he can. Something hidden isn't much of a deterrent. It's not a secret that there are a smattering of CCW people about. You won't be surprising him; it's something he's likely considered and prepared for; that's why his hands are shaking and his finger is tight on the trigger. Can you draw from concealment faster than he can take up the slack? At that moment, wouldn't you wish the whole situation could have been avoided?

EDIT to add: I am not trying to convince you to carry openly! I am hoping you'll consider the statements you made in your post.
 
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Lets not forget the Open Carry Tarrant County whackadoo's in TX. Those chuckleheads aren't helping anyone with their antics! They are fodder for the liberals to malign & demonize gun owners. Nothing like playing into the hands of the enemy.

Now, here in AZ it is perfectly legal to open carry & conceal a firearm. With that said; THE APPLICATION OF COMMON DAMN SENSE goes a long way!!!

Is open carry always socially prudent? -NO
--When a gun can be concealed then do so. Saves the 'looks' & calls to the police. Especially in urban areas. In the sticks? Have fun.

Do the cops here in AZ really care about open carry? -NO
--but we do get annoyed when we do get those calls & have to address it just to find out it was avoidable had the person concealed it.

Regardless of what you may or may not think about tactical advantage & disadvantage of open vs. concealed carry, facts are facts.
1- If no one knows you are armed then you have the advantage already. Speed, surprise & violence of action.
2- You also don't have the proverbial bullseye on your chest.
3- everyone you contact doesn't not give you the "that guy" look.
(Don't be a poser)
4- Help the gun rights movement by not looking like a militant loon. {Sorry, I hear that all the time from concerned citizens when they approach me about some person carrying their hog leg openly...its a BAD message folks}.
5- You will not have to deal with the police--unless you can't drive correctly.
6- Annonymity is good, be a blade of grass. Remember the weeds get killed first.
7- Use solid equipment for CCW & practice practice practice with it!
8- Keep your head on a swivel, see them before they see you. DO NOT bury your face in electronic devices while in public.

Many open carriers use shoddy nylon cheap ambi holsters and DO NOT maintain situational awareness. I've often thought about how I could snatch their gun from them before they had time to act because they're not paying attention. Now I would never do that....But, don't forget that cons spend a lot of time in their cells thinking about how to disarm cops...& we use retention holsters. Do you really think that Joe Con would have any compunction about snatching the open carrier's pistola from his/hers shoddy, flimsy sagging holster with the backwards thumb break? Hell, police officers & MP's have been murdered solely for their sidearms. If they'll kill a cop; military or civil what makes you think they won't waste a citizen?? Don't be a target (see #2 above).

Thankfully most gun toting souls are cognizant of the fact that CCW is better than OC. Needing or wanting attention for the exercising rights is not the route to take, especially when it causes consternation & offends the voters who may have to vote on these very issues. Keep the seniors & soccer moms happy folks, they vote!!

PS: Use your dang head too!
 
Lets not forget the Open Carry Tarrant County whackadoo's in TX. Those chuckleheads aren't helping anyone with their antics! They are fodder for the liberals to malign & demonize gun owners. Nothing like playing into the hands of the enemy.
What about those rapists and robbers that conceal? What are they doing for the cause? Of course, we don't equate that with what we traditionally call concealed carry, but don't doubt for a minute that people unfamiliar or uncomfortable with guns do.

Is open carry always socially prudent? -NO
Always is a strong word. Is concealed carry always prudent? NO. I can't think of many things that are always socially prudent. Since I have ten years experience with open carry in a place a little less accepting than AZ, I feel qualified to answer what I think you meant; YES, most of the time open carry is perfectly acceptable. In ten years I have encountered only two people that were unappreciative of open carry- one angry and one that wanted to debate firearms ownership. I've also had several dozen supportive comments from men and women.

--When a gun can be concealed then do so. Saves the 'looks' & calls to the police. Especially in urban areas.
People call the police for a lot of reasons, as I'm sure you're aware. If a black man walks through a white neighborhood someone will call the police. Is it legal? Yes. Are you going to shake him down for legal activity? No, not if you want to keep your job you won't.

Do the cops here in AZ really care about open carry? -NO
--but we do get annoyed when we do get those calls & have to address it just to find out it was avoidable had the person concealed it.
Are you for real? You're bitching because you have to do your damn job?! What the deuce? Cry us a river why don't you. I'm sure instead of responding to a open carry call, where you'll find no law has been broken, you'd prefer to go sort out a DV call, or a child rape case?

Regardless of what you may or may not think about tactical advantage & disadvantage of open vs. concealed carry, facts are facts.
Which are followed by beliefs, not facts.
1- If no one knows you are armed then you have the advantage already. Speed, surprise & violence of action.
Those were just used to initiate the confrontation and put you in a hole of which you'll have to fight your way out. I prefer to avoid the hole.
2- You also don't have the proverbial bullseye on your chest.
Proof? No, opinion again.
3- everyone you contact doesn't not give you the "that guy" look.
(Don't be a poser)
Poser? Posing to be what?
4- Help the gun rights movement by not looking like a militant loon. {Sorry, I hear that all the time from concerned citizens when they approach me about some person carrying their hog leg openly...its a BAD message folks}.
People that don't like guns aren't going to suddenly be pro-gun because they don't see guns. That's the most bizarre logic I've heard yet.
5- You will not have to deal with the police--unless you can't drive correctly.
I don't have to now anyway. Open carry is lawful here, so if you stop me for doing so I'll politely dismiss you.
6- Annonymity is good, be a blade of grass. Remember the weeds get killed first.
...and all the grass gets pooped on by that off-leash dog you should be catching. Get to it.
7- Use solid equipment for CCW & practice practice practice with it!
Use solid equipment for OC & practice practice practice with it!
8- Keep your head on a swivel, see them before they see you. DO NOT bury your face in electronic devices while in public.
It took a while, but you've finally posted some good advice.

Many open carriers use shoddy nylon cheap ambi holsters and DO NOT maintain situational awareness.
You believe that concealed carry guarantees quality holsters and situational awareness? Seriously?

Thankfully most gun toting souls are cognizant of the fact that CCW is better than OC.
You haven't, and cannot, prove either contention- that CC is better, or that most believe it.

PS: Use your dang head too!
We could say the same to you.
 
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Lets not forget the Open Carry Tarrant County whackadoo's in TX. Those chuckleheads aren't helping anyone with their antics! They are fodder for the liberals to malign & demonize gun owners. Nothing like playing into the hands of the enemy.


It's true that not all OC demonstration tactics were productive. In fact, the OC groups in Texas got together and published a list of dos and do nots for their membership last year after receiving bad press and some backlash from retailers.

That said, OC groups in Texas have successfully brought the issue to the attention of the good people of Texas. The public debate is going in their favor.

It's easy to criticize those who are out in public standing up for their rights, but intelligent thoughtful people understand what the demonstrations are about, and their voices have been heard. They're winning.
 
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Detained, handcuffed and arrested. Ooooops... all charges dropped.

Citizens knowing the law is not a problem.
Police not knowing the law is a problem.

Citizens recording being stopped by police is not a problem.
Police stopping citizens at gunpoint or otherwise and detaining them while the are obeying the law is a problem.

Mr. Sorenson's domestic partner recorded the entire event at one point the police are heard to say "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" to Mr. Sorenson.

That came back to bite them hard .

ETA original video recording of arrest

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPsfufk7RkI[/ame]
 
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Open carry results in: "shoot me first"



In forty years of carrying a sidearm...I have not found this to be an issue.

If it were, OSHA would require CC for all employees of agencies, ya'd think eh...

I'm not feelin it on CC being all that 'tactical'...Situational awareness is our first defense at all times.

But that's just me talking here...Folks ought to carry the way they find most comforting.

OC or CC, just being prepared is the key...Cause as the ol sayin goes,
"When seconds count, we (the police) are just minutes away!"

And we'll bring the chalk, the police line tape and start the investigation.


.

Can't really equate a cop with a weapon displayed to the average citizen. Unless a guy is REALLY out of his mind, he's not gonna kill a cop if he can avoid it. Cop killers get caught, and the full force of the state and federal government is brought in to find them. Eric Frey, the loser who shot the two PA troopers, was caught after 2 months of being on the run, by US Marshals, with an expense of tens of millions of dollars. That kind of effort and expense is not spent on a murder of an average citizen.

As for the lawsuit payout, I was once sued by some guy who said I beat him and robbed him. Only problem is I was off that day. Without batting an eye, his lawyer said "how do we know you didn't come in on your day off to rob my client?". Allegations unfounded as far as the charges, but city settled for 20 grand anyway.

last year, the city paid 5 grand to a man justifibly shot by the police.

Cheaper to settle than it is to fight it.

And I still think the guys walking around with Rambo rigs are idiots. And the tool in the video looks like he's about 4 months pregnant.
 
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Still waiting to hear how many OCers killed because they were the first one seen by the bad guys.

Probably not many, which makes sense. Because the fact is, you have a very SMALL chance of even using your gun in a real defense situation. How many here have drawn their weapon? Fired it?

Still waiting to hear how OC drops crime. You live in NY, ladder. Probably a suburb on Long Island or maybe Rockland County. Worse case scenario, you live in a very nice area in NYC, like Bayside or Bayridge. So open carry is not legal there. Even hard to get a CC permit to carry in some of the neighboring counties. if you live on Long Island, I can almost guarentee you don't have a CC permit.

But either way, you most likely live in a low crime area where OC is not legal. So how is it that in an area that nobody carries a gun openly, and very few even carry concealed, not counting off duty cops, that the crime rate is very low?
 
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Can't really equate a cop with a weapon displayed to the average citizen. Unless a guy is REALLY out of his mind, he's not gonna kill a cop if he can avoid it.

Most criminals that murder/kill are,,,,wait for it.............Out of their minds anyhows....:rolleyes:

Gees, I thought the criminally insane were bar'd from possessing firearms by the '68 GCA.
So, no worries there, eh.

I do carry concealed sometimes, like at church and the opera. ;):D

It's jest good manners to do so, wouldn't you agree?


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Mr. kbm6893,
You are sur nuf a real hoot....Keep the laughs and knee slapper coming.
That is what's so great about this place....It's all in good natured fun anyways.:D
 
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Still waiting to hear how OC drops crime.

The "how" is pretty easy. Criminals fear armed citizens.

Old Tex-Mex posted his personal experience in this thread. Did you read it?

Here's a short article on the subject.
Open Carry Deters Crime - US News

Here's excepts from the Rossi/Wright study, including:

"40% of felons said they had been deterred from committing a particular crime because they thought the potential victim might be armed."

"57% said that most criminals feared armed citizens more than the police."

http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/clics2012a/commsumm.nsf/b4a3962433b52fa787256e5f00670a71/5de089825c00843e872579b80079912d/$FILE/SenState0305AttachB.pdf

--------------------

There's tons of information indicating that criminals select victims they believe are weak or will not not be able to fight back or defend themselves. I am unaware of any study showing that criminals prefer to attack victims they know to be armed over unarmed citizens. Can you provide such evidence?
 
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Open carry with a carry permit is legal where I live. Aside from the risks involved with some thug seeing an opportunity I don't want to end up with an article like this in the paper. This is from a small town newspaper near my town that publishes a weekly Police Blotter . This is in a county that has a reputation for being very pro self defense. It worked out OK but I don't want the hassle.

March 14

4:42 p.m. Suspicious person. 7th Street N. A report was made regarding a male carrying a gun into a residential building. Officers found the male had a carrying license and no action was needed

When you live in a Cloud, you have to worry about such things.:rolleyes:
 
People keep asking for proof. Get over it. There ain't none either way.

When we don't have proof, hard data, or statistics to evaluate, we must use common sense.

You use yours and I'll use mine.

You see, open carry vs concealed isn't the issue. GUN SAFETY is! When gun ALL owners can follow ALL of the gun safety rules ALL of the time, we wouldn't be in the lime light so often.

IMO, demonstrating your gun rights by carrying openly is a slow monotonous process. Almost a waste of time. We should instead concentrate on gun safety. The rest will come later.
 
Why I only OC:

1) The presence of a gun will deter crime - best to avoid a confrontation.
2) My OC draw is abut 0.2 seconds quicker that my CC draw - best to be able to present as fast as possible if needed
3) OC is more comfortable, and thus I am more likely to carry

blah, blah, blah...

Why I only CC:

1) It's best to not give up the tactical advantage
2) OC makes you a target for "Shoot first"
3) OC makes you a target for a gun grab
4) The ignorance of the public results in MWAG calls

blah, blah, blah...

Point/Counter Point. Why choose sides here? We're all pro 2A.

Round and round we go. If you only CC, fine. If you only OC, fine. If you do both, fine. Just get off the high horses. I don't care what you do.

When it comes to personal protection, you are not my inspiration, you are not my mentor, you are not my hero.

We should support each other. These OC kerfuffles make no sense to me.
 
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Point/Counter Point. Why choose sides here? We're all pro 2A.

Round and round we go. If you only CC, fine. If you only OC, fine. If you do both, fine. Just get off the high horses. I don't care what you do.

When it comes to personal protection, you are not my inspiration, you are not my mentor, you are not my hero.

We should support each other. These OC kerfuffles make no sense to me.

yes.......perhaps

yes

yes

and yes
 
Most criminals that murder/kill are,,,,wait for it.............Out of their minds anyhows....:rolleyes:

Gees, I thought the criminally insane were bar'd from possessing firearms by the '68 GCA.
So, no worries there, eh.

I do carry concealed sometimes, like at church and the opera. ;):D

It's jest good manners to do so, wouldn't you agree?


.

Mr. kbm6893,
You are sur nuf a real hoot....Keep the laughs and knee slapper coming.
That is what's so great about this place....It's all in good natured fun anyways.:D

Come on, man. You know that isn't always the case. Some murders are planned. Others are just spontaneous due to anger, and some are loony toons. given your rationale, why aren't cops killed EVERYDAY in high crime areas? THOUSANDS of guns taken off the streets everyday. THOUSANDS of homicides in these high crime areas. I worked one of the worst neighborhoods in NYC. Over 2500 murders a year when I came on. Cops getting shot was still an irregularity.

Strap on that Iron and stroll down Main Street if you want. It's your right. Hey, it's my right to protest a military funeral and call the dead soldier a baby killer. Tell the grieving parents their son is in hell Or a police funeral. Wonder how many here would approve of that?
 
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Just to throw my 2 cents in.

I have never concealed carried, or open carried, other then carryin in or out of a gun show or gun store, going hunting, or shooting.

Yet I am a big supporter of the constitution and the bill of rights, and as such I can not bring myself to criticize those who wish to carry open or concealed, I may sometimes cringe at how they go about, but that is also true of the 1st and how some exercise it.

To me you are either for the 2nd or against it.
 
We're all pro 2A.

I can tell you in no uncertain terms that gun owners are not all pro 2A.

Heck, polling indicated in Washington that half of gun owners sided with Bloomberg and his Hags Demand Action group on mandatory background checks. Start a thread here about Constitutional Carry or even just the notion of government not requiring mandatory training and watch the fuss commence. You should have heard the whining and crying by the guys at my gun club over Guns in Bars. The notion that gun owners are all pro 2A is perhaps one of the biggest myths to be posted on a gun forum, ever.
 
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Not just yet. The antis haven't started hurling personal insults in frustration. That's usually how these discussions end- they run out of anti-OC argument so they do what Reggie does, they just call us names. After that the mods will close it. ;)

Like I said, divisiveness is the danger to gun rights- and that's what they're peddling.

Imagine how Constitutional Carry bothers them, no permission, no papers, no fees, no training. ;)

Ask them......................... 2A defenders?


"But, but I belong to the NRA."
 
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Imagine how Constitutional Carry bothers them, no permission, no papers, no fees, no training. ;)

Ask them......................... 2A defenders?


"But, but I belong to the NRA."

Chuck Schumer says he supports the 2A and the right to keep and bear arms..... but I digress.
 
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