WHEN YOUR BETTING YOUR LIFE UPON IT

lazy-b

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Many may say that my lack of confidence in semi-auto
pistols is due to my being of the old school and probably some what goofy, both of those allegations might have value.
However, with the myriad of problems that many semi-autos encounter regularly that causes immediate disablement, what successful gambler that relies upon playing the odds will risk their life on a gun that has experienced a fail to fire in the past?

The first time a thief steals is the hardest, the first time a wife or husband cheats is also the hardest but in both situations
each time thereafter become incrementally easier, therefore,
if a semi-auto fails to fire or eject the first time, the odds on it happening again are greatly increased.

In view of the fore mentioned, the odds tell you when it comes to betting your life upon it, carry a REVOLVER!

Billy


 
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.....or two! The only time I feel under gunned is when the thought, repeat thought, of a semi wielding BG or BG(s) enter my mind. Odds? Really slim where I am and frequent. Failures on my Colt Defender in 5 months? A few. Operater error? Maybe. Doubt cast on it? A little. Failures on my J-frame in 22 years? Zero. Doubt cast on it? Zero also! What gets carried? My j-frame. (Subject to change)

Stay safe, John
 
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Here we go again!

I was a LEO for 30.5 years and have been CCW for almost forty (40) years. I HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED A NON-INTENTIONAL FAIL TO FIRE OR ANY OTHER PROBLEM THAT CAUSED THE GUN IN MY HAND TO BE USELESS. CCW time about equally divided between a revolver and a semi-auto.

Do the math; that's a lot of shooting. And though I currently CCW a M60 or M642, that is based solely on ease of concealment.

IMHO, the likelihood of an encounter that neccessitates use of a CCW concurrent with that gun's inoperability is infinitesimally small.

Thus I won't base my decision vis-a-vis revolver or gun on my prediction it won't work when/if needed.

Be safe.
 
My only failures to function were both with revolvers. My today's autoloaders are fantastic. The revolver failures were both S&W products.
 
This could well become one of those "epic" threads. :)

First of all I am, through and through, a revolver guy. I love them. all of my woods guns, range guns and collector guns are revolvers. My Home Defense guns are all revolvers. In my years as a LEO the only duty weapon I ever carried was a Model 19. However my EDC is a auto, Walther PPK.

"Why" you may ask. Well, there are three basic reasons. Firstly, in no particular order, because of ease of concealment. In a Galco horse hide holster I can very easily slip it into my jeans pocket, shorts pocket, coat pocket. I can easily carry it IWB or OWB. It is a little heavier than some of the others on the market but it is small enough and thin enough to be very easy to carry.

Secondly, dependability. I have put, I can't even guess how many, hundreds and hundreds of rounds through my little PPK. Mostly, I shoot what I carry which is Buffalo Bore ammo. In all the time I have owned it I have never had a failure of any kind.

Third, at 20 yards I can drive tack with this little thing. I shoot it and practice enough with it to be extremely confident that, if need be, I can ruin a BG's day with it.

I think my track record of zero failures is the result of two things. 1) It is a very good quality gun. 2) I am anal about properly cleaning and maintaining it. Even if I go a bit of time without shooting it I field strip it, clean it and lightly oil it about once a month.

Result? A very dependable gun that I can shoot very well and have full confidence it.

All that said, I'm still, at heart, a revolver guy.

Bob
 
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Many may say that my lack of confidence in semi-auto
pistols is due to my being of the old school and probably some what goofy, both of those allegations might have value.
However, with the myriad of problems that many semi-autos encounter regularly that causes immediate disablement, what successful gambler that relies upon playing the odds will risk their life on a gun that has experienced a fail to fire in the past?

The first time a thief steals is the hardest, the first time a wife or husband cheats is also the hardest but in both situations
each time thereafter become incrementally easier, therefore,
if a semi-auto fails to fire or eject the first time, the odds on it happening again are greatly increased.

In view of the fore mentioned, the odds tell you when it comes to betting your life upon it, carry a REVOLVER!

Billy



WELL STATED, Billy…………
 
I was a LEO for 30.5 years and have been CCW for almost forty (40) years. I HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED A NON-INTENTIONAL FAIL TO FIRE OR ANY OTHER PROBLEM THAT CAUSED THE GUN IN MY HAND TO BE USELESS. CCW time about equally divided between a revolver and a semi-auto.

Do the math; that's a lot of shooting. And though I currently CCW a M60 or M642, that is based solely on ease of concealment.

IMHO, the likelihood of an encounter that neccessitates use of a CCW concurrent with that gun's inoperability is infinitesimally small.

Thus I won't base my decision vis-a-vis revolver or gun on my prediction it won't work when/if needed.

Be safe.
I am not an LEO. I have been shooting for about fifty years. I have had a few failures to function adequately for defensive purposes, and I have seen some failures to function adequately for defensive purposes. A few have been with revolvers, more have been with autoloaders.

The likelihood of an encounter that requires my weapon is very small, yet I go to the trouble of carrying the weapon. It's a nuisance, often, but I still consider it worthwhile. I figure I might as well carry one that I know will work. I have a few autos that have never malfunctioned. I have a LOT of revolvers that have never malfunctioned.

I don't think I need to explain what I carry. Most folks can figure out for themselves what they should carry, and if I happen to disagree, that's OK.
 
when your betting your life upon it

For the most part, a novice shooter should start off with a revolver that is at least with a three inch barrel and a caliber in the range of .38 spl or 357 magnum. I encourage my students to start with a .22 revolver, preferably, single action to improve on the trigger control and sight alignment. Revolvers are basically trouble free and if the round does not shoot, you pull the trigger again for the next round. They are simple and work with the right ammo and index properly. However, semi autos are another bag or worms. Semi Autos have their problems with jams due to shooter induced, ammo, mags, extractors, limp wrists, lighter materials for more recoil and so one. The steel semi autos are much better in the recoil area but people want the light compact guns in either revolvers and semi-autos for that easy to hide method. They usually shoot them for a short period of time due to heavy recoil and the guns sit in their draws or night stands and become draw queens. Don't get me wrong, I started with revolvers way back when I was in law enforcement and still have them for my classes. I teach both depending on the experience of the student. Because of my experience and practice, I carry a Springfield XD .40 cal and practice every day dry firing and range practice at least once a month. That gun has never failed me and I have shot 3000 rounds in a weekend advance classes without a failure. The secret is cleaning the gun after you shoot it. My Springfield is at least eight years old and still looks new and I trust the gun with my life and inspect it weekly for any defects that might be a problem down the road. I have spare parts and the only thing I replaced is a roll pin for the striker assembly. That pin is most common to break dry firing even with a dummy round in the chamber. It is up to the individual's experience whether young or elderly for the caliber to carry. What is good for one person may not be good for another.

Nick
 
This could well become one of those "epic" threads. :)

In my years as a LEO the only duty weapon I ever carried was a Model 19. However my EDC is a auto, Walther PPK.

"Why" you may ask. Well, there are three basic reasons. Firstly, in no particular order, because of ease of concealment. In a Galco horse hide holster I can very easily slip it into my jeans pocket, shorts pocket, coat pocket. I can easily carry it IWB or OWB. It is a little heavier than some of the others on the market but it is small enough and thin enough to be very easy to carry.

Secondly, dependability.

Third, at 20 years I can drive tack with this little thing. I shoot it and practice enough with it to be extremely confident that, if need be, I can ruin a BG's day with it.

I think my track record of zero failures is the result of two things. 1) It is a very good quality gun. 2) I am anal about properly cleaning and maintaining it. Even if I go a bit of time without shooting it I field strip it, clean it and lightly oil it about once a month.

Result? A very dependable gun that I can shoot very well and have full confidence it.

All that said, I'm still, at heart, a revolver guy.

Bob

Hmmm. I own a ppk and while it is well made, and I have about a thousand rounds through it, it has jammed on occasion. I don't know if yours is a .380 but in .32 ball ammo and only ball ammo, Winchester white 71 grain is pretty much all you can count on. You had me at Model 19.:D
 
"each time thereafter become incrementally easier, therefore,
if a semi-auto fails to fire or eject the first time, the odds on it happening again are greatly increased."

Lazy-B, I can't agree with that at all. Not meaning to sound disrespectful, it borders on superstition. Starting in the '70s and going through the '90s I was issued three Sig 226s, three Sig 228s, and three Sig 229s. I also bought at least one of each for a personal gun. I can't even estimate how many rounds I fired through them. One 228 and one 229 were shot so loose (and carried in adverse environments) they had to be retired, but were accurate and reliable to the last round.

Throw in a mix of 220s and a 239, and the flawless round count only goes up.

I've personally owned 13 Colt 1911s in various configurations. I had a single accidental discharge in the mid-70s that I blamed on the gun, but thereafter it never missed a beat, even with my hand-hacked hand loads. For YEARS! Not even the magazines.
Colt 1911s were my carry guns until the late 70s when we got Sigs.

S&W 4516, 4006, 6906, 915, 745, various iterations of the 39, and more recently a pair of S&W 1911s and two M&Ps, one 9mm, the other 357Sig, all functioned without a miss.

Our training officers were daemons and made scenarios intended to cause operator error and exploit any weakness in the gun. In the course of training I did see a couple people inadvertently eject a magazine, or fail to fully seat one. This is during intense training under great stress.

As to failures, I did see a magazine floor plate pop off, scattering the rounds in the dust, giving me incentive to always carry a spare.

Occasional failures to feed, fire, or eject, were always operator error or ammo problems. I did see a couple guns fail to go into battery when the slide was released, but those were guns being used intensely in training. Hit the back of the slide, worked fine.

A lot is made of the "limp wrist" problem, and 1911s get the wheelbarrow share of the blame. I have taken all of my Colts, and those of others, held them upside-down pulling the trigger with my little finger and have NEVER had it happen.

I also went through several Beretta 92s that never coughed. One of our sons was professional military, now reserves, and went to the desert four times, each time issued a Beretta. He said they were poorly maintained and gun handling was terrible, but not one ever missed a beat. He has owned five.

I have competed in IPSC and IDPA for years and seen quite a few autos fail. In ALL cases these were guns "optimized" or openly modified to be race guns. Having raced cars for years I know that when you build anything to run at the limit, sometimes it goes over. Most recently, at an IPSC match I saw a guy with a whizz-bang hi-cap blaster with doo-dads hanging off its nose, slots and holes in the slide, a trigger with a woodpecker problem, sights even an elephant could use, and a funnel on the bottom for feeding eight-inch shells. He couldn't keep it running to the end of a single stage.
My M&P Pro? Never missed a beat, and I shot it with either hand.

I think, with nothing to back it up, that most of the complaints come from the early days of autos when there were problems, and from competition guns. However, I knew people since 1972 who used Browning Hi-Powers, and not one ever said they had a failure.

Double feed? Failure to feed? Failure to extract? Sure, it happens. But not on sound, well-maintained guns. Lubrication is critical. A gunsmith on the Sig forum has a guide for lubrication worth reading. BUT, *I* have used autos with nothing to lube the slide but dust, and they worked fine.

You'll see many people in these forums talk about springs. Good springs are critical, but before you replace one, do your research and then work it out at the range before you put it in your holster.

Ammo is another potential problem. If a gun is not working with reloads, try more than one quality commercial brand through it. ALL autos were made for SAAMI standard pressure rounds. The popularity of +P and +P+ means problems will manifest. Early 1911s are said to have problems with hollow-point bullets. In 1972 I had a military-issued 1911 (probably made during WWII and rebuilt with military parts) and a Colt commercial Series 70. I bought several boxes of Super Vel, which had a hollow point that looked like a railroad tunnel. All fed fine.

A few years ago one of the gun writers delved into the "mysteries" of the 1911 and why all the modifications are so popular. He pointed out that competitors wanted to shave thousandths of a second off their times and did things such as the beaver tail, speed bump, lightened slides, and slicked up actions. Each one aggravated some other feature of the gun that was not a problem for us every-day shooters. The early S&W 1911Sc (pre-E) had a problem where normal hands using normal grips did not depress that speed bump enough to disengage the safety. Competitors who clamped down with 400 pounds of force had no problems. We pansy-hands did.

I'm fine with revolvers, but they have an undeserved reputation for reliability compared to autos.
I had a Vaquero that would bind up without warning, locking with the hammer half back. It went to gunsmiths and to the factory without resolution. Dumped it.

Had a Colt, Python I think, that every so often locked with the hammer not quite to fully aft and so could not be fired double-action.
Had an Anaconda that looked as though it had been dragged behind a truck for few thousand miles. Pulling the trigger full aft would not release the hammer. Sent it to Colt for rebuild. They did a fabulous job for a very reasonable price, even replacing the barrel.

I have ragged on Taurus guns a lot and still have a bad taste in my mouth for them. HOWEVER, you'll find a lot of people on this forum who have had no problems. I still have a PT92C

In terms of flat-out failures, I've had more revolvers do that, than autos.

Timing is a big issue, it seems. I don't know what the heck people do with their guns, but I received several .357-Mag revolvers that shaved lead like cheese slicers. One Colt Trooper actually rattled when shaken.

A 329 had to go back to the factory twice. After only a few hundred rounds, the yoke broke. Then, I sent it to Cylinder and Slide for some modifications and they said they wouldn't touch it until S&W replaced the hand and retimed it.

I bought a S&W 327TRR8. Before I fired it I handed it to one of our sons, a LEO. He grabbed it by the barrel, said "Heh," and showed me that it wiggled in the frame. Back to S&W, who replaced the entire gun.

This is not a whine about revolvers. I've had a number and still do. They remain my first choice for backpacking and day hiking. Just as for autos, if they are quality brands in good condition and lubricated correctly, they are fine and I relied and rely on them often.

Just a suggestion: if you have actual problems with an auto (not reacting to rumors or claims), have it checked by a QUALIFIED person, and then find an instructor who is familiar with it, to evaluate what you're doing.
 
WHEN YOUR BETTING YOUR LIFE UPON IT

Uh, it's you're not your.

Your = Belongs to you. "It's your right to start a pointless and divisive thread."
You're = You are. "You're certain of you opinion?"
Yore = A time long past. "In the days of yore people needed six chambers to do the job of one."

If you're happy with your boat anchor, invented in the days of yore, I'm happy for you. ;)
 
If semi autos weren't reliable do you think the brave men and women who put theirselves in harms way everyday would have one strapped on their hip?
Yeah, if they're ordered to, or even know the difference. Of course, that may be only a moot point, because nowadays there a LOT of very reliable autoloaders.
 
This could well become one of those "epic" threads. :)
Bob

I don't know about "epic", but what it's already turned into is another of those "Revolver vs. Semi-Auto" threads that we all know and love.
yawn.gif


So without further ado, let me get a few of my generic comments in here, then I'll be on my way:

1. There are advantages and disadvantages to both types of guns. (Surprise!)

2. If you get a misfire with a revolver, just pull the trigger again. No taking time and both hands to clear it.

3. Revolvers can use more powerful loads.

4. Semi-autos usually hold more rounds than revolvers.

5. You see more action heroes using semis than revolvers.

6. Having a semi-auto gives you more chances to complain about FTFs, FTEs, stovepipes, etc. when you're commenting on gun forums.

That's enough for now, I think. Y'all excuse me...I'm headin' off to contribute to the latest Bear Gun Thread now.
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Failure rate for most guns is really small. Until you have numbers to show failure rates by gun, you are just guessing, based on reports on the internet-which is the WAG method. When I point out that my MP has had one FTF in over a thousand, it means nothing. Was it the gun, the ammo, me? Who knows. Carry what you like and can use. If its' concealed, I will never know.
 
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