AR15 pistol or not?

[McE]

Well...do you cerakote your firearm? Kinda the same thing if you do. Do you dress up your gun with different accessories? In a way its similar. I dont think ill SBR atleast not for a while, simply no need at this time

If cerakoting required a $200 tax stamp I wouldn't do it either.
I may be one of the few people that doesn't have money to blow, I just can't imagine myself paying that much for a SBR that is identical from the muzzle back otherwise. I don't see the point even if there was no tax stamp involved. Only way I understand it is 'because you can' or like a $200 admission to some exclusive club.

 

[ClayCow]

If cerakoting required a $200 tax stamp I wouldn't do it either.
I may be one of the few people that doesn't have money to blow, I just can't imagine myself paying that much for a SBR that is identical from the muzzle back otherwise. I don't see the point even if there was no tax stamp involved. Only way I understand it is 'because you can' or like a $200 admission to some exclusive club.

No I meant youre spending money not really needed. It costs roughly $250 to cerakote your firearm which really doesnt do mcuh for the firearm. Just saying outfitting your AR is really the same as getting a stamp and SBR. One just might cost a little.more than the other.

 

[MistWolf]

...As a civilian, I personally have no need for an SBR...

So what? I've been around awhile and am pretty familiar with the list of human needs and it is indeed a very short one. Firearms are not on it. Going to give up all your firearms because you don't need them? Or do you keep certain ones that impress the non-tacticool cliques with how non-tacticool chic they are?

I've been shooting SBRs & AR pistols. In fact, lately I've been shooting an AR pistol with the Sig brace more than I've been shooting the 16 inch AR. I find the configuration useful. I find SBRs & AR pistols in certain configurations more useful than the 16 inch AR for certain tasks. Shorties balance well, are a blast to shoot (pun intended), and accurate. With my CCW, I can keep an AR pistol loaded legally in my vehicle.

AR pistols & SBRs have their place. They have their uses. But before anyone just goes dismissing either out of hand, they should get some trigger time first. Not just bang bang!, oh that's nice but really shoot it. Most of us would benefit from shooting more and keyboarding less

 

[BAM-BAM]

Was at a shoot about a month ago.........

as to "need" vs. "want" vs. " intended purpose".............

A guy had a short barrel (guessing 10-12") full auto AR....... w/ bipod, variable scope(can't remember but not a small 1-4) doubled/clipped 30 rd mags.....and some upgraded collapsible "target style"(IMO) stock.

I believe in "to each their own".....I just couldn't figure out the combination of stuff and it's intended purpose........he was not an "Operator" at about 5'6" and +250lbs

I like purpose built ARs.............


that said; Mistwolf....nice set up....... are you shooting the Sig brace on the arm or at the shoulder......... at the shoulder it seems to be a poor man's SBR........ but the car carry/handgun is an interesting point to consider.

FWIW for vehicle carry I like a compact 20rd P-mag backed up with 30s.

For a scoped "light sniper" I like a couple of 10rd mags back up with 20s..... maybe one 30....... just in case.

 

[gdnagle]

are you shooting the Sig brace on the arm or at the shoulder......... at the shoulder it seems to be a poor man's SBR........ but the car carry/handgun is an interesting point to consider.

From my understanding from BATFE rules is if you fire from the shoulder and get caught you are in violation of SBR ruling see next to last paragraph or correct me if I misread.

https://www.atf.gov/file/11816/download

 

[Rustyt1953]

Rastoff, since the door was opened, in the time I have known you and re-read your posts, I have found you to be very knowledgeable about firearms, shooting techniques, ballistics, tactics and gun laws. You take the time to research and take pride in what you discover and happily share it with us.

You are one of those that, when I see your name on a thread, I'm gonna read it. This forum has a lot of folks like you.

I have never been given "bad information" by you.

Thanks for what you do.

Signed; a fan.

 

[Muss Muggins]

It's true, though.

https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

Last page, second "Held further" paragraph

There is a subsequent letter ruling from ATFE which further discussed the arm brace and other issues associated with the AR pistols. In that ruling, if an AR pistol has ever been fired from the shoulder, it becomes an NFA firearm forever . . . (oops, somebody beat me to it)

I don't want to even hold one of these until ATFE gets things more clear.

 

[BAM-BAM]

From my understanding from BATFE rules is if you fire from the shoulder and get caught you are in violation of SBR ruling see next to last paragraph or correct me if I misread.

https://www.atf.gov/file/11816/download

and .........Muss Muggins........


Why I don't have one......but.....temptation is powerful ...... I'll bet more than one has touched a shoulder..........."just this once"...... to see if it will work when TEOTWAWKI arrives........

I'd bet very few are ever strapped on ...... making the shooter a Star Trek Cyborg LOL... can't imagine strapping on a "car gun" before responding to TSHTF.

 

[MistWolf]

In my line of work, I cannot afford to be in violation of the law. I conduct my life accordingly

 

[Chuckles253]

So what? I've been around awhile and am pretty familiar with the list of human needs and it is indeed a very short one. Firearms are not on it. Going to give up all your firearms because you don't need them? Or do you keep certain ones that impress the non-tacticool cliques with how non-tacticool chic they are?

I've been shooting SBRs & AR pistols. In fact, lately I've been shooting an AR pistol with the Sig brace more than I've been shooting the 16 inch AR. I find the configuration useful. I find SBRs & AR pistols in certain configurations more useful than the 16 inch AR for certain tasks. Shorties balance well, are a blast to shoot (pun intended), and accurate. With my CCW, I can keep an AR pistol loaded legally in my vehicle.

AR pistols & SBRs have their place. They have their uses. But before anyone just goes dismissing either out of hand, they should get some trigger time first. Not just bang bang!, oh that's nice but really shoot it. Most of us would benefit from shooting more and keyboarding less

Nice AR pistol BTW. As I said, to each his/her own. I assume we are all adults here. You have the right to decide which firearms you want in your collection and it is a personal choice. If you find it useful, great. I never implied that people should not own an AR pistol or an SBR. I also never implied that anyone should give up firearms. You could benefit from your own advice -- stop getting so defensive and let your emotions settle down before hitting the keyboard.

 

[BAM-BAM]

With my CCW, I can keep an AR pistol loaded legally in my vehicle.

AR pistols & SBRs have their place. They have their uses.

MistWolf "In my line of work,I cannot afford to be in violation of the law. I conduct my life accordingly."


Combination of comments that make one go....... Hummmmmmmm?


On a lighter note:
The last time I saw a AR pistol deployed effectively was in "A Clear and Present Danger"

 

[MistWolf]

I work in aviation and have to be able to maintain a security clearance. It's just not worth the risk

 

[McE]

There is a subsequent letter ruling from ATFE which further discussed the arm brace and other issues associated with the AR pistols. In that ruling, if an AR pistol has ever been fired from the shoulder, it becomes an NFA firearm forever . . . (oops, somebody beat me to it)

I don't want to even hold one of these until ATFE gets things more clear.

The Sig brace shenanigans has nothing to do with the reason I posted that.

Rastof says once you turn an AR pistol lower into a rifle, you can never change it back into a pistol.
This is simply false.

You can put on a 16"+ upper on an AR pistol, slap on a buttstock, and shoot it as a rifle.
Then you can remove the buttstock, switch to a <16" upper on that AR pistol, and shoot it as a pistol.
Back and forth, at your leisure, as long as you don't have the buttstock on at the same time you have the <16" upper on it.

 

[BAM-BAM]

This is the problem....... I really don't think anyone truly understands what the "regulations"/not the law; says/means.... or how some agency will come down on your butt if you have a ( ).....I'm a Lawyer and have attended several CLE sessions on firearms issues......there is a lot of unsettled law.......I don't want to be the next test case......

My understanding is a BATF letter only applies/is binding to the person to whom it's written

if challenged; I have limited resources the Government doesn't.............

I've heard every interpretation under the sun on these forums..... including that if you have a rifle lower and possess a "pistol" upper w/o a matching lower.... there is intent to someday create a SBR.........flip it ......if you have a AR pistol and a rifle lower ..........intent??????

for 4" of barrel length it's just not worth it......

MistWolf....IMHO (deleted)

 

[MistWolf]

The point about having a pistol upper and only a rifle lower isn't that there are agents waiting to pounce on you for constructive intent, only that if you get into trouble and they come search your place and that's what you have, they could add "constructive intent" to the list of charges. It's brought up as a "better safe than sorry" kind of thing rather than a warning of impending doom. It's to help those to know what to avoid when they worry about the possibility of constructive intent when they have a pistol upper and no pistol lower or SBR lower.

In any case, IF there is a combination that will get you in trouble, it's having an orphan pistol upper and an orphan rifle lower. It seems odd, but if you have a complete AR pistol and an orphan rifle lower that isn't constructive intent.

As for myself, I didn't mean to sound mysterious. It's just that when I work as an aviation tech on a military base, I have to be able to obtain and maintain a security clearance. It's not worth it to me to get busted for a firearms felony (such as using the Sig brace illegally) and lose that clearance no matter how ridiculous the law or regulation may be

 

[Rick_A]

It's been quite well established since the 2011-4 rulings that a pistol can be made a rifle and back, and the same applies to a receiver first made as a pistol first.

What cannot be done is having a collection of parts than only makes an SBR. In general as long as your stocks have a lawful home your collection of parts/uppers/lowers is fine.

This stuff is questioned daily on ARFCOM so much that it's become quite common knowledge there.

The 2011-4 rulings cover all of this so there is no point in having an individual letter. If it bothers enough make a personal copy of the 2011-4 document.

 

[gdnagle]

OK now I know were getting off subject

But if according to item 18 of form 4473 marked as "OTHER" you have a lower that isn't registered
as a rifle or pistol so doesn't this still make it legal? Also how about a finished 80% lower you would still be legal as it has never been registered and doesn't
have to be for the builder.

 

[Rick_A]

Unless state laws are different, 80% lowers aren't registered and a lower is sold as an "other-receiver." If the 4473 is filled out wrong that has no bearing. Folks ask that their receiver is "registered" as something or other but that's just not how it works.

 

[Biggfoot44]

I have one , so I can have aan opinion.

When thimking about an AR pistol , put yourself in the mindset of a T/C Contender or an XXP-100 . Legally a "pistol" , but in actuality a third catagory of their own. Can't be carried on the belt , can't be shouldered. But can be apreciated for what they actually are.

Fired from bench/ bipod/ other form of rest , they are quite accurate. More compact to transport thn a rifle. Unlike an SBR , no need to file a Form .20 to cross State lines. In some jurisdictions fewer carry restrictions than rifles ( can go either waay , check local laws) .

During the window between the first BATF Letter and the second , I had opportunity to play with a friend's SIG brace equipped Pistol. It felt and handled very similar to my SBR with the stock collasped. Some people like them that way , but I prefer a longer LOP .

BUT even if you care for a "semiuto Contender" , I'd specifically recomend against a 7.5in 5.56 AR . Major vel loss , major muzzle blast ( hey I also have aa 2.75in .44Mag , and. A 7.5in 5.56 is way worse) , and major reliability issues , it isn't worth the tradeoffs. Go with at least 10.d in.

The thing is , with the buffer tube inherent to the AR design , it is still long overallm .

Better alternatives to be semi-practical are out there. The PLR Pistol doesn't have a buffer tube , so for same bbl length , much shorter overall. Likewise AK pattern Pistols don't have buffer tube , nd the 7.62x39 ctg is less effected by the short bbls. Several varients came stock with 10-ish in bbls , so the reliability is a known factor.

Or as aalluded , in an AR platform , consider other ctgs more inherently suited to short bbls. .3001:-4@23 300 Whisper & ripoffs , 6.8 , and even pistol cals.

 

[Beruisis]

If you favor portability, look at the Steyr AUG M3.
I've been an AR guy for some time...just got one of these & I'm loving it.