Excessive Leading on Target Loads

[SW CQB 45]

Gun: Springfield Armory 1911 5" with a Nowlin Barrel (gun was built by Springfield Armory Custom Shop)

Load: Penn .356" 115 LSWC using an old can of WSL 4.0 loaded at the edge of the lube groove 1.095"

With todays powder availability, I decided to use this WSL and save my other stuff.

I have an old Winchester 14th Edition Reloading Components Catalog that lists some reloads in the back of the book. It shows…..

9mm 114 Lead using WSL out of a 4" (MAX 35,000 PSI)
starting 3.8 grs / 965 FPS / 28,500 PSI
max 4.1 grs / 1050 FPS / 32,700 PSI

I use this load for an timed accuracy match (all free hand / point shoulder)
2 rounds X 4 times 3 seconds 5 yds
12 rounds 25 seconds 7 yds
12 rounds 35 seconds 15 yds
18 rounds 90 seconds 25 yds (mandatory reload)

While the accuracy is very acceptable, I am getting excessive leading from 50 rounds. Leading to the point where barrel cleaning requires several methods to remove the lead (stainless bore brush, Lewis Lead removal, shooters choice on a patch X 5 and shooters choice lead remover)

I have never slugged this barrel and it might be tight because if I go up a .01 gr or reduce COAL to get away from the lube groove, I start to see signs of higher pressure - flattening of the primer.

So here are my questions:
Yes, I need to slug this barrel but my only soft lead is 44 caliber balls. Will that punch into my 9mil barrel and come out? Or crush the ball in the vise first to get is closer?

While my season ends in Oct and I am either first or second in my class and I don't want to make any major changes since its accurate, but maybe I need to look at a different powder with a greater flexibility (for the future). (This is an accuracy match and keeping it below 1100 using lead is my goal)

5 passes each got lead flakes like below





Horrible range conditions, east facing range shot at approx 0900 hrs. The sun was in my face and had to drop my cap bill severely. It also washed out my front sight to blend with the B27 target. I had difficult lining my sights because I could not see the edges of my front sight. I did use a flat black paint pen to help with glare.

the shots at the bottom of the 10 ring were from the 25 yard line were I felt my early 25 yard shots were going high, so I aimed at the bottom of the 10 ring and thats where the shots landed. Sun in the face SUXS!







Any advice or experience will be greatly appreciated.

 

[Tim357]

Need a little more info. How hard are the bullets? Where is the leading occurring in the barrel? IME, the bullets are too hard and too small diameter. Sounds like they aren't slugging up to fit the bore, and are being gas-cut by propellant. Ran into this same scenario with a .45 Colt.
Tim sends

 

[oldRoger]

I would try to slug the Barrel with the Penn Bullet, I have had reasonable success doing so. Be sure the barrel is clean and the bullet well lubed.

The standard answer to leading, provided that the bullet fits, is too high or too low a charge. So when you finish match shooting a little experimentation is in order.

The quick answer is; if you have Bullseye use it. I also like VV 320 and I think it is usually available.
I almost never shoot 115 grain so I have no charge info to offer.

 

[fredj338]

Sounds like the bullet is too small. Hardness has little to do with leading. It's all about bullet fit. You can run a near pure lead bullet @ 1000fps with little to no leading, depending on bore finish.
I admit to never slugging a bbl. Cyl throats yes, bbls, no. I start with a bullet 0.001" larger than jacketed. If I get leading, I go up 0.001". A lot of guys shoot 0.357"-0.358" dia bullets in their 9mm.
The other issue to check; is the bullet being resized at seat/crimp. Pull a seated/crimped bullet & measure the bearing portion. If it is smaller than 0.356", that is likely your issue.

 

[SW CQB 45]

these are the slugs I am using…. (Click on 115 SWCBB)
9mm Bullets Available From Penn Bullets

I buy standard .356". while it does not state bullet hardness on this particular slug, I did find this wording on another slug,

The Target Grade features an alloy of around 14 BHN that is rated to 850-900 FPS as opposed to the Match Grade which features a BHN of 20+.

I believe these slugs to be Target Grade.

The leading appears to be near the chamber.

My taper crimp is by feel and just a nudge to best describe my setting. I do not taper crimp hard.

I will measure my round diameter tomorrow.

 

[venomballistics]

Look up the piglet method of powder coating. If you boil off the lube and rinse in naphtha, you can get good enough adhesion. A few bucks worth of experimentation might make you a convert. The only time I have leading is when I pound through old traditional lubed stock in bulk. Never get it with coated

 

[Fishinfool]

A tight bore fit, along with a fairly hard bullet with a non-beveled base seems to work well in most 9mm's I have tried. Gas checks are also effective in reducing leading in the 9mm.

I think the fairly high pressures in a 9mm, compared to those in a revolver or .45 auto shooting target level loads, and the use of small charges of fast powder contribute to the leading problem. Most 9mm's seem to need to be loaded close to factory velocities to ensure reliable function.

If it were my gun, and experimenting with bullet fit didn't cure the problem, I might consider trying a lighter spring, and loading slightly slower velocities with a slightly slower powder.

It would be a Band Aid approach though, as your gun should shoot well with a proper fit bullet. I am assuming that Nowlin barrel is smooth, with no rough spots, or choke points. Coated bullets are also an option, and may be a good one, particularly in a finicky 9mm.

Most of my 9mm cast bullet development has been geared towards Glocks with factory barrels, and I have found tight fit, hard cast with a gas check, equals no leading or increased pressures in these guns, though when all is said and done, it's probably easier to just shoot bulk FMJ bullets in them.

Larry

 

[SW CQB 45]

If it were my gun, and experimenting with bullet fit didn't cure the problem, I might consider trying a lighter spring, and loading slightly slower velocities with a slightly slower powder.

It would be a Band Aid approach though, as your gun should shoot well with a proper fit bullet. I am assuming that Nowlin barrel is smooth, with no rough spots, or choke points. Coated bullets are also an option, and may be a good one, particularly in a finicky 9

Larry

Thanks for the info Larry
This nowlin 9mil barrel is smooth and I think harder than the slide. It pushing the barrel locking lug edges in the slide.

My guess on the recoil spring is 11lbs, so it's ready light. I may load my next batch at 3.8 hrs. I do show my book that 3.8 felt sluggish slide travel but that was last year. I also marked it accurate with that weight.

I may be switching to coated. Is there a coated SWC in 9mil.

I do have N320/330 and B/E.

 

[Moonman]

Missouri Bullets makes a HI-TEK coated 9 MM 125GR SWC.

 

[AveragEd]

Actually, a bullet that is too hard can cause leading. If you visit Missouri Bullets' website, there is a link there to a little "hardness education" that casts doubt on the old "harder's better" theory we all were taught years ago. A bullet that is too hard for the pressure behind it can fail to seal itself to the bore, allowing gas to leak past its base and melt the lead around the bullet's perimeter.

I use either Missouri Bullets or ones from Precision Cast with absolutely no leading from my target loads in .38 Special, .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum in revolvers and .38 Super and .45 ACP in 1911s. Since the 9mm and the .38 Super can use the same bullets, you might want to give this bullet/powder combination a try when your season is over. I use Missouri's .356" 125-grain SWC in either plain or coated over 6.0 grains of AutoComp. It's accurate for me and very, very clean.

Ed

 

[Magload]

Missouri Bullets makes a HI-TEK coated 9 MM 125GR SWC.

I am shooting that bullet in my 9 Pro with 4.4gr of CFE Pistol at 1091 fps PF136, ES 14, SD 5 and good groups. Don

 

[GCF]

I've noticed that some "otherwise" very talented smiths - for what ever reason, when barreling an auto-loader, do not finish the chamber to optimize cast bullet use.

If the leade into the rifling is not beveled, it will cause quite a bit of leading - just past the chamber.

Jacketed bullet accuracy un-effected, but makes life miserable for a CB shooter.

Check it out. If that is the problem, it's a fairly easy fix.

 

[Nevada Ed]

If the 124gr lead or coated does not work out for you..........
there is always the larger 147gr bullet.

I shot a box of Speer #4006 TMJ through my 9mm with Bullseye, Red Dot, Green Dot, CFE, Unique and HS-6.

Many of the light target loads outshot a lot of my top 115 and 124gr plated RN loadings.

Powers ran from 3.2grs to 5.0grs for my target loads with the real copper coating. With the minimum case volume, HS-6 gave
me my best full loading at an OAL of 1.13", that matches Factory fps.

I want to try some 147 coated, just to see what will turn up after seeing how well the jacketed bullets did.

Good luck in getting a lead free barrel.

 

[rsrocket1]

Unless you know the actual bore (groove) diameter of your particular barrel, you are swinging blindly at what could cause the leading. If your barrel is too big, no bare lead bullet may work until you get big enough bullets or soft enough bullets with enough pressure from the load to bump it up and even then you may still get some leading.

On top of that, 9mm is tough to load with lead because the case is tapered so if you cast a fat enough bullet, you have to expand the case enough not to swage the bullet down. Then you need to ensure the case is still small enough to feed reliably into the chamber. When you get it all dialed in, it is a great feeling to shoot 200 lead bullets and come home with a mirror bright barrel or at least one that only needs the soot to be wiped off of it.

9mm barrels can vary anywhere from less than 0.355" (my M&P 9 barrel slugged at 0.3545") to 0.359" (many european made barrels are this wide). The sure fire way to avoid leading is to use plated or jacketed bullets which is what these guns were originally made for.

Powder coating can help so long as you start out with a bullet no more than about 0.001-0.002" too narrow. It adds about 2-3 mils to the diameter of the bullet. You can start out with a fatter bullet, PC, then size it properly. My cast 9mm bullets drop out at 0.358" and are 0.360" after powder coating and they glide through my 0.356" sizer which is perfect for my M&P and Shield barrels.

Get a snug fitting bore mop, wrap it with a couple strands of Chore Boy or some bronze wool and run it back and forth through the barrel. It only takes a few passes to scrape all the lead out and the bronze/copper is softer than the barrel steel so you won't harm the rifling. Do this outdoors because you will pull out a bunch of sparkling lead dust.

Next, get an egg sinker or cast a slug in a cut down .38 special brass case. Lube the slug well and drive it down the barrel. Use a micrometer to measure the widest part of the slug and now you know the groove diameter. You should use cast bullets at least 0.001" larger than this diameter to prevent leading.

Hope that helps

 

[Geo. T.]

My Guess!

My guess is that the bullets are to soft! There is one very easy fix!

Go to Precision Bullets On Line and buy their coated bullets!
Very good bullets and reasonably prices and right now the shipping is free!

I can shoot hundreds thru mt 1911 and it will clean up in minutes!

 

[SW CQB 45]

I know that I need to pull this slug and measure….but I don't have access to my puller at this time.

exposed bullet diameter: .356"
Diameter of case at the bottom end of the slug (or right before the skinny waistline…ha): .380"
Taper Crimp diameter: .373" to .374"

I am half tempted to break out my 500 rounds of R9MMR 147 Match Remington that I have had for years, make any sight corrections and finish out the season with them rounds.

initially I was a little scared to shoot this particular 100 round batch as I loaded them as long as they could go without exposing the lube groove. I did not know if a couple of rounds might be just off slightly and I crimped into the lube groove. Well I took a chance on accuracy and while its not my best, I was only 5 points down and that damn sun was burning a hole in my eyes. I shoot that range again at the end of this month and I plan to arrive a little late to get the sun higher up.



and here is my shooter. Springer 9mil 5" Nowlin barrel with standard Aristocrat adjustable rear sight (not the tri position sight) trigger set at 3.5

 

[fredj338]

Early leading in the bbl throat is often a bullet too small. Your expander may be undersized & the case is swaging the base of the bullet down. Only way to know is pull one. I run pretty soft 125 gr bullets at 1025fps, no leading to speak of. Mine are sized 0.3565". Much larger & I don't get reliable clambering with some of my tighter bbls.

 

[AtomHeartMother]

Early leading in the bbl throat is often a bullet too small. Your expander may be undersized & the case is swaging the base of the bullet down. Only way to know is pull one. I run pretty soft 125 gr bullets at 1025fps, no leading to speak of. Mine are sized 0.3565". Much larger & I don't get reliable clambering with some of tighter bbls.

+1. Case swaging is a real issue with 9mm. I use a 38s&w expander plug in my die...and I still have to watch for case swaging.

 

[Frank237]

It's 2015 and yet we still see confusion regarding WHY one is experiencing leading in a barrel.

It's all about the slug FITTING the barrel, to a much lesser degree bullet hardness plays a part. Also assuming proper lubrication of the slug.

Fred is 100% correct as usual. Slug your barrel as well as measure a PULLED bullet. I'd wager you are taper crimping and sizing the slug down too small and THAT is the cause of most of your leading.

Nines can be problematic with cast. I have a few that work fine and a BHP that has such a small chamber I can not get it to run reliably with the .357" slugs required to fill the bore.

I do have a couple of SIG's that digest my 130 gr cast slugs just fine even at 1050 and 1100 fps. Using an NOE mold, slugs sized at .358" . Being careful to not swage then down when I apply a mild taper crimp.

Or...get educated... http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121607-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

 

[SW CQB 45]

unless I am doing something incorrect…..my slug still measures .356" on the bottom.

time to slug the barrel!






Using a Zero .358" Swagged Slug I drove it in my Nowlin Barrel

I measured on the south side of .356".



Correct me if I am wrong.

to ring out the best accuracy and minimize leading in this particular barrel

I need to use a .357" or .358" slug?

Will I need to change my Dillon 550 expander or just flare the mouth open a little more for the additional .001 to .002"?

thanks for all your help