Many failures to fire and need some advice

[1TommyBoy]

Here is the latest update... I decided to try the ALG trigger group and the springs that came with it. I had to use one of the JR anti-walk pins as the center wire that held the trigger in place had been punched out to use the JR anti-walk pins. The result was 100 reliable for 25 rounds 11 or which were the failed to ignite CCI tactical and 14 CCI stingers. From this point, I will try the lighter JR Trigger spring with the ALG hammer and disconnector springs and if it works I will call it good or put back in the ALG trigger spring. Either way it appears I will have returned it to being reliable.

I should note that I tested the ALG trigger and hammer spring on some fired rounds and there was a significant visual difference in the mark left by the firing pin. I suspect the culprit was the JR reduced effort hammer spring.

Thanks for all the helpful advice!

I few months back I installed Advanced Combat Trigger (ACT) from ALG Defense. In addition to the trigger, I installed the AR-15 Reduced Power Spring Kit (3.5lb - 4.5lb) from JP Enterprises and Anti-Walk Pins from JP Enterprises.

My gun has gone from 100% reliable to terrible. While at the range a few weeks ago I was getting multiple hammer strikes-2 rounds fired and many failures. I estimate I was getting between 6-8 failures per 25 round magazine along with 3-4 double strikes.

After the range session, I cleaned it and noticed that one of the screws holding the anti-walk pins had backed out and was missing. JP Enterprises was awesome and sent me a fresh set of pins and I replaced them and put in the OEM hammer spring. A couple of days ago I tried again and while there were no more double strikes, failures are now 11 of 25 rounds.

Today I decided to give the OEM trigger a go with the JP Enterprises with the Reduced Power Spring Kit but have yet to try it. I don't know how this will work out yet and looking for other ideas and I liked the ALG trigger and lighter springs. Looking for any ideas/suggestions from those with more experience may have other than to put back the original springs or send the rifle back to Smith & Wesson.

I should mention the only ammo fired from this since new has been CCI Tactical and one magazine of CCI Stingers. I may have a total of 6-700 rounds total. I could not tell much if any difference in the visible strikes on the casings for those rounds that failed vs. those that ignited.

 

[Dandecoteau]

Looks to me like you solved your own problem

I few months back I installed Advanced Combat Trigger (ACT) from ALG Defense. In addition to the trigger, I installed the AR-15 Reduced Power Spring Kit (3.5lb - 4.5lb) from JP Enterprises and Anti-Walk Pins from JP Enterprises.

My gun has gone from 100% reliable to terrible.



Take out that stuff, back to 100% reliable.

 

[Mark15/22]

Leave the JP trigger spring in and reinstall the stock hammer spring. The hammer spring is more then likely causing your light strikes. It should return back to 100% reliable. The trigger will still be smoother and lighter then stock.

 

[sithlord]

I've run the same combo (ALG hammer+trigger, JP yellow springs); I was getting light strikes so I replaced the hammer spring with the original.

I'm by no means an expert, BUT,,,

The walking pins can absolutely result in an unintentional double fire.

The ALG ACT trigger/hammer start life as mil-spec fire control group (same as the OEM FCG). They are then polished and NiB'd. I doubt they are the issue.

Do the 'failure to fire' rounds ignite when loaded a second time? It could be the ammo lot, esp given that you aren't seeing significant strike differences between those that fail to fire and those that fire.

 

[1TommyBoy]

Leave the JP trigger spring in and reinstall the stock hammer spring. The hammer spring is more then likely causing your light strikes. It should return back to 100% reliable. The trigger will still be smoother and lighter then stock.

I tried using the OEM hammer spring and the results were 11 of 25 rounds that did not fire. I have put back the OEM trigger group with the JP lighter springs and hope to try it today. If that does not work I will return it to stock and see what happens.

Thanks!

 

[1TommyBoy]

I've run the same combo (ALG hammer+trigger, JP yellow springs); I was getting light strikes so I replaced the hammer spring with the original.

I'm by no means an expert, BUT,,,

The walking pins can absolutely result in an unintentional double fire.

The ALG ACT trigger/hammer start life as mil-spec fire control group (same as the OEM FCG). They are then polished and NiB'd. I doubt they are the issue.

One of my observations is the ALG shows no sign of being polished vs. the OEM that is highly polished.

Do the 'failure to fire' rounds ignite when loaded a second time? It could be the ammo lot, esp given that you aren't seeing significant strike differences between those that fail to fire and those that fire.

I have reloaded the rounds and yes they do ignite, but some have taken multiple attempts. Given the high overall failure rate I would expect some not to ignite.

 

[RedNeck Jim]

Some fire control groups just don't provide a strong enough hammer strike for the 15-22 but will work fine on a centerfire. Years ago I tried a drop in Timney & I had the same problems. I'm not one to mix & match individual parts, so I just replaced it with a hard hitting CMC trigger. My gun is as close to 100% as possible. I just simply can't remember the last failure of any sort.

 

[sithlord]

I have reloaded the rounds and yes they do ignite, but some have taken multiple attempts. Given the high overall failure rate I would expect some not to ignite.

The NiB (Nickel Boron) coating on the ACT may not look as polished as the OEM, but it is harder, resists wear and is better overall.

It sounds to me like the ammo. A few years ago, I picked up some Winchester M-22 ammo. I was getting failures left and right. A few months afterwards, I picked up a different box, and had no failures.

Now I shoot CCI Blazer and CCI Standard Velocity almost exclusively, and have no issues.

If you have another 22, put the 'dud' rounds in them. If they don't shoot, toss them, and chalk it up to a bad lot of ammo.

 

[1TommyBoy]

The NiB (Nickel Boron) coating on the ACT may not look as polished as the OEM, but it is harder, resists wear and is better overall.

It sounds to me like the ammo. A few years ago, I picked up some Winchester M-22 ammo. I was getting failures left and right. A few months afterwards, I picked up a different box, and had no failures.

Now I shoot CCI Blazer and CCI Standard Velocity almost exclusively, and have no issues.

If you have another 22, put the 'dud' rounds in them. If they don't shoot, toss them, and chalk it up to a bad lot of ammo.

Unfortunately, I don't have another 22 to put the duds in to see if they ignite. I can't attribute it to ammo as the CCI Tactical or CCI Stingers both had similar results. The CCI Tactical was purchased at different times and places and tried some from each box.

Hopefully something other than stock works as I changed it because the trigger was not all that great to begin with. I really liked the ALG/JR Enterprises combination.

The possible combinations left to try are;
-OEM trigger group with JR springs and anti-walk pins
-OEM trigger group with stock springs and OEM pins
-ALG trigger group with ALG springs and ALG pins
-OEM trigger group with stock springs and anti-walk pins
-OEM trigger group with JR springs and OEM pins
-OEM trigger group with stock springs and anti-walk pins
-ALG trigger group with JR springs and ALG or OEM pins


Combinations that failed;
-ALG trigger group and JR springs and anti-walk pins
-ALG trigger group and OEM hammer spring with JR trigger and disconnect spring and anti-walk pins.

Will post update on what I find out and thanks to all for the suggestions.

 

[tomcatt51]

Are your anti-walk pins for a 15-22 or a standard AR-15? Anti-walk pins for a std AR are shorter and can squeeze down the lower and bind up the parts.

Install the stock stuff and see if all is well again.

If it is, try the ACT with its' included springs and pins.

 

[1TommyBoy]

Are your anti-walk pins for a 15-22 or a standard AR-15? Anti-walk pins for a std AR are shorter and can squeeze down the lower and bind up the parts.

Install the stock stuff and see if all is well again.

If it is, try the ACT with its' included springs and pins.

The anti-walk pins are for the 15-22. JR Enterprises makes them in two sizes. I will take your advice and try he ALG with its springs and pins after OEM assuming the OEM works.

 

[tomcatt51]

I will take you advice and try he ALG with its springs and pins after OEM assuming the OEM works.

It's a matter of going back to a known good baseline, verifying it works, and going from there.

Lighter hammer springs in a rimfire can be a problem.

I run a Geissele SD 3 Gun trigger with their longer 907 Colt pins in my 15-22. It uses a stronger than stock hammer spring. It give the least misfires of any 22LR I own.

It might be worth pulling the the firing pin out of the bolt and cleaning it and its' bore and making sure it's not broken.

 

[1TommyBoy]

It's a matter of going back to a known good baseline, verifying it works, and going from there.

Lighter hammer springs in a rimfire can be a problem.

I run a Geissele SD 3 Gun trigger with their longer 907 Colt pins in my 15-22. It uses a stronger than stock hammer spring. It give the least misfires of any 22LR I own.

It might be worth pulling the the firing pin out of the bolt and cleaning it and its' bore and making sure it's not broken.

I always clean the bolt and I have checked the firing pin and seems like it is not broken. Can you disassemble the bolt to expose the firing pin?

 

[tomcatt51]

You don't really "disassemble the bolt" but there's a roll pin you drive out to remove the firing pin and its' spring.

 

[1TommyBoy]

You don't really "disassemble the bolt" but there's a roll pin you drive out to remove the firing pin and its' spring.

Got it and just watching a YouTube video where they showed how to drive out the roll pin. Thanks!

 

[BlueOvalBandit]

Hardly an expert but just a thought, the lighter hammer springs were designed for the AR-15 in mind, which floats and has no firing pin spring. In the 15-22 we have a firing pin spring and it's probably robbing enough energy to cause light strikes.

Also if I recall a few years ago S&W went with shorter firing pins. Inertia is what drives these firing pin the rest of the way to the rim, unlike an AR-15. You can test this by pushing the rear end of the firing pin flush with the bolt body.

Inertia firing pin + firing pin spring resistance + lighter hammer springs = recipe for light strikes to me.

 

[1TommyBoy]

Hardly an expert but just a thought, the lighter hammer springs were designed for the AR-15 in mind, which floats and has no firing pin spring. In the 15-22 we have a firing pin spring and it's probably robbing enough energy to cause light strikes.

Also if I recall a few years ago S&W went with shorter firing pins. Inertia is what drives these firing pin the rest of the way to the rim, unlike an AR-15. You can test this by pushing the rear end of the firing pin flush with the bolt body.

Inertia firing pin + firing pin spring resistance + lighter hammer springs = recipe for light strikes to me.

You are correct, after several tests I used all of the new components with the exception of the hammer spring. I used the ALG hammer spring and shot 50 rounds with no failures.