.380 ACP: Flat-Point FMJ vs JHP

I carry my S&W .380 PPK/S on occasion and use JHP Hornady Critical Defense, it has a red rubber filled hollow point designed to penetrate clothing then expand in soft tissue. Personally, I'd never carry FMJ hard ball in my defense guns for so many obvious reasons, but that's just me.
(Threads suck w/o pictures)
IMG-2886.jpg
 
I refer to the Lucky Gunner tests as my go-to guide. After much deliberation I settled on the V-Crown (in .380) as the best compromise of penetration and potential expansion. Placement is on me. You may not agree with their tests or view these type tests as definitive, but [in my view] they're the best, most thoroughly exhaustive tests of their kind around short of actual FBI results.
 
I refer to the Lucky Gunner tests as my go-to guide. After much deliberation I settled on the V-Crown (in .380) as the best compromise of penetration and potential expansion. Placement is on me. You may not agree with their tests or view these type tests as definitive, but [in my view] they're the best, most thoroughly exhaustive tests of their kind around short of actual FBI results.

Lucky Gunner at least does five round samples and sometimes does short and long barrels as well.

A lot of the videos on YouTube use a single round, and near the margins of the expansion envelope that doesn't tell you much. When you get near the minimum velocity needed for expansion, a hollow point doesn't just hit a magic number where it stops expanding. Instead it stops expanding consistently. Add in a fairly high standard deviation and you can get some misleading results.

For example, if you might have a hollow point that expands 60 percent of the time at a given velocity. So the odds are 60 percent that the single shot tested will perform and the tester will declare victory when 40 percent of the time that hollow point will fail to expand.
 
Another vote for the Winchester FMJ truncated cone bullet load. A Lyman 356632 mould, part of a pile of reloading stuff I bought, was a lucky find. It makes a 100 grain truncated cone bullet that has worked well for me. Over 4.2 grains of Unique works nicely in my .380's. Runs around 1080 fps and good accuracy without leading. Recoil is a bit snappy in the1910 Browning or P3AT but very tolerable in the locked breech Llama Especial. It is very comfortable in the CZ-83 or Beretta 84.

You might want to back off half a grain to start.

Yes, I know Unique is dirty and smokes, but it works very well in .45 ACP and I load LOTS of that.
 
Well guys, it happened...

Last night while browsing my LGS website, I found a Beretta 21a Bobcat Inox for $275 LNiB, so I went out this afternoon and bought it!

I know, I know... Here's the part where someone will tell me how it makes no sense to replace a Ruger LCP with a Beretta 21a because .22LR is weaker and less reliable than .380 ACP overall, but it's a BUG and frankly I cannot bear the cost of .380 ACP JHP because the cost/performance ratio is just too vast. I'll sooner carry a weaker, less reliable cartridge which can be fed for like 12¢ a round over a marginally effective cartridge which costs upwards of 60¢ a round and expands 40% of the time.
 

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My old 21A never jammed and with it I could shoot about 3 rounds in 1 second.
That makes it very much better than nothing. Also, some persons flinch at .380 but not with .22 LR.
 
I run Buffalo Bore's 95Gr +P JHP in my Colt Pocketlite. It ramps up the .380's pathetic +/- 800 FPS to +/- 1100 FPS. It has NO PROBLEM meeting the FBI's 12" to 18" spec for Gel penetration with great expansion. I would NOT recommend it for Tupper Ware pistols though. Colt says it's OK in the Pocketlite as long as it's not a steady diet.
I once nearly destroyed a Browning 10/70 and Browning 1955 .380 pistols by firing just one box, you read that right, just 1 box of high powered loads through both pistols. I ended up warping the frames big time. I had to stone the rails to even get the slides to slide back.

I might add I tested a 1973 Walther PPK/s with the same hot ammo and it suffered no damage at all but after seeing the two Brongings almost destroyed I never again fired hot loads out of any blowback .380 pistol (there are some .380's that are lockbreach).

I personally do not worry about bullet expansion unless there is a danger of "too much" penetration which would end up not only hitting your target but going through your target and hitting an innocent bystander.

Lets face facts people have been shot "stone dead" when they were hit in the heart with a .177 pellet gun and if you hit someone in the heart with an fmj bullet or an expanding bullet you cannot kill a person "deader" you can only kill them dead.

I have never been a big fan of the .380 when you can get the same pistol in a .32 acp as the German Army found out in the early 1900's the .32 acp would penetrate a Military Helmet while the .380 bounced off. The .32 acp recoils far less enabling the average Joe to shoot it far more accurately than the vicious recoil of a blowback .380 pistol (there are some locked breech .380 pistols) .

So much for the ignorant rantings of gun writers who have bad mouthed the .32 acp for the last 100 plus years. As a matter of fact Agnes Herbert one of the great woman hunters and shooters said back in the year 1900 that the gun writers of her era were morons who knew little about real world hunting and shooting. My how little things have changed in the last 125 years as gun writers are as big a bull crapers today as they as the were in 1900. They simply repeat the same old myths over and over.

I think too that way too many people do not realize that getting a bullet to expand or shooting a larger caliber does not turn the round into a death ray machine either. The difference between the diameter of say a .380 or 9mm compared to say a .44 or 45 caliber is a scant 1/10th of an inch or less. Rather its accurate shooting, bullet penetration and bullet placement that are paramount.

Not so long ago when the .25 acp and .32 acp dominated the "carry" market it was noted that more people were killed by these calibers than the bigger pistol or more powerful pistol calibers. You might say the victims who died from these two smaller calibers died because they "did not" read all the gun magazines that would have told them they would not be harmed if shot by a .25 acp or .32 acp.

And also remember no matter what the caliber of exotic expanding ammo you use that still even today this ammo has a way more of a chance of causing a jam than using a bullet with a more rounded nose. When I attended my concealed carry class you would not believe how many guns "jammed" up when their owners tried qualifying with them while using expanding ammo. And I might add some even needed help to clear the jams. Not good in a real gun fight.

When using a .32 or .380 auto pistol I would have no qualms at all using a round nosed bullet that was a fmj or even hard cast lead. I have shot enough hard cast lead to know they can be very reliable and give far less jams than an exotic flying ashtray expanding bullet.

Use what works for you in your handgun as long as its reliable and has sufficient penetration and you can shoot the ammo well without flinching.

Avoid all the advertising hype. Not so long ago Winchesters advertisements for their "Black Talon" ammo was "too successful" creating a firestorm in the news media even though it was no more destructive than other well known and well made ammo. When Winchester quit making it because of the firestorm of bad publicity (none of it deserved) people panicked and went nuts and were paying over $150 a box and that was decades ago. I simply yawned and loaded up my usual hard cast bullet loads and never looked back.

Decades ago I shot a 185lb Whitetail deer with a hard cast 121 grain bullet out of a browning High Power. The deer took two wobbly steps and fell down deader than a doornail. I sent Jeff Cooper a picture of the deer and my Browning High Power (because I knew he hated the 9x19). He never responded to my letter but did respond to me when I asked him later in time a question about building a 1911 pistol.
 
Lucky Gunner at least does five round samples and sometimes does short and long barrels as well.

A lot of the videos on YouTube use a single round, and near the margins of the expansion envelope that doesn't tell you much. When you get near the minimum velocity needed for expansion, a hollow point doesn't just hit a magic number where it stops expanding. Instead it stops expanding consistently. Add in a fairly high standard deviation and you can get some misleading results.

For example, if you might have a hollow point that expands 60 percent of the time at a given velocity. So the odds are 60 percent that the single shot tested will perform and the tester will declare victory when 40 percent of the time that hollow point will fail to expand.
I find it amusing that so many of the you-tube testers fail to line up the gelatin blocks correctly and waste shots and skew results by not elevating the front of the blocks a few inches before firing. What happens is that when they fire, the barrel of the gun is higher than the table that holds the blocks, so they end up firing down at a slight angle which allows the bullet to exit out of the bottom of the block, which renders the result of that shot as meaningless.
Why is that simple concept of firing at a proper angle from the git-go so elusive for some people?
 
I find it amusing that so many of the you-tube testers fail to line up the gelatin blocks correctly and waste shots and skew results by not elevating the front of the blocks a few inches before firing. What happens is that when they fire, the barrel of the gun is higher than the table that holds the blocks, so they end up firing down at a slight angle which allows the bullet to exit out of the bottom of the block, which renders the result of that shot as meaningless.
Why is that simple concept of firing at a proper angle from the git-go so elusive for some people?
Agreed. It's not rocket science.
 
The closest I've come to carrying is a stainless 380 Walther PPKS. I could put it in my pocket but not much to worry about at the pickleball courts where I know almost everyone by name. With 3 mags and a range that does not allow exposed lead my choice is obvious and the gun is deadly at any reasonable distance, even offhand SA or DA. So far no failures to fire and eject of any sort. Hard to argue with a near century old design.
 
I find it amusing that so many of the you-tube testers fail to line up the gelatin blocks correctly and waste shots and skew results by not elevating the front of the blocks a few inches before firing. What happens is that when they fire, the barrel of the gun is higher than the table that holds the blocks, so they end up firing down at a slight angle which allows the bullet to exit out of the bottom of the block, which renders the result of that shot as meaningless.
Why is that simple concept of firing at a proper angle from the git-go so elusive for some people?
Correct me If I am wrong but if you measure a block of anything that is rectangular including a gelatin block a bullet that travels from say the upper edge of the front of the block to the lower edge of the rear of the block rather than traveling a straight line from the front of the block to the back of the block the bullet will actually travel a longer distance when firing into the block from the upper edge making it less likely the bullet will exit the block not more likely. To speed things up just measure a business card this way and see the extra distance from the upper edge on the left side to the lower edge of the card on the right side as compared to measuring it "on the level" from left to right.
 
I'm long overdue to rotate the defensive ammo I carry in my Ruger LCP so I've been shopping for ammo, but after years of carrying .40 S&W as a primary carry gun, the prices on defensive .380 ACP seem outright offensive.
For years I carried some flavor of 90gr XTP because that's what seemed to consistently perform well in Gel Tests in terms of achieving minimal FBI Specifications. Unfortunately, the cost of such ammo seems to average out at 1¢ per grain, as the average 90gr XTP seems to cost 90¢ per round, which just seems like too much for minimum acceptable performance after years of carrying .40 S&W which obviously offers peak performance for a fraction of the price.
Nevertheless, the Ruger LCP has become a mainstay in my EDC rotation for its lightweight, small size, and extreme concealability, so I need to keep it fed.

Upon watching many .380 ACP ammo tests on YouTube, I've pretty much arrived at the conclusion that the vast majority of JHP ammo performs poorly, either completely failing to expand and therefore essentially functioning as an overpriced FMJ or otherwise expanding perfectly yet only penetrating 8-10" in Gel. Meanwhile, flat-nosed FMJ seems to perform much better, penetrating up to 19" in gel with minimal risk of collateral damage.
So I'm really struggling to convince myself that it's worth paying up to a dollar or more for JHP ammo in exchange for minimum acceptable performance at best, with carefully selected ammunition.

Thoughts?
This might help if you haven't seen it before.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
 
Correct me If I am wrong but if you measure a block of anything that is rectangular including a gelatin block a bullet that travels from say the upper edge of the front of the block to the lower edge of the rear of the block rather than traveling a straight line from the front of the block to the back of the block the bullet will actually travel a longer distance when firing into the block from the upper edge making it less likely the bullet will exit the block not more likely. To speed things up just measure a business card this way and see the extra distance from the upper edge on the left side to the lower edge of the card on the right side as compared to measuring it "on the level" from left to right.
You are correct. But...

With a 6" by 6" by 16" gel block if you entered the block at the very top edge at a perfect 20.556 degree angle, it's still only 17.08" to the opposite edge.

If you entered at the top right corner and exited at the bottom left corner the distance is still only 18.1".

And it's good for only 1 shot. The juice just isn't worth the squeeze for another inch or two of block length when you can just set a second block behind it and use all the gel much more efficiently.
 
Before Paul Harrell passed, he did his meat target test with the Hornady CD 90 gr. and got good results. Which seems to mirror Lucky gunners results. I use the Hornandy and based the Gel test results I've seen, the Federal Hydra-shok deep.

One thing that isn't discussed much, is a HP that doesn't expand. Based on Gel tests I've seen, these seem to cut through gel better and leave a good wound channel over a FMJ. You just need one that doesn't over penetrate. I think this is the direction Gun Sam (youtuber) goes with his .380 choice.

Based on LG's chart, the Rem. HTP looks ideal for that. 16.8" of penetration and a decent would channel. No expansion, but also no overpenetration.
 
I'm long overdue to rotate the defensive ammo I carry in my Ruger LCP so I've been shopping for ammo, but after years of carrying .40 S&W as a primary carry gun, the prices on defensive .380 ACP seem outright offensive.
For years I carried some flavor of 90gr XTP because that's what seemed to consistently perform well in Gel Tests in terms of achieving minimal FBI Specifications. Unfortunately, the cost of such ammo seems to average out at 1¢ per grain, as the average 90gr XTP seems to cost 90¢ per round, which just seems like too much for minimum acceptable performance after years of carrying .40 S&W which obviously offers peak performance for a fraction of the price.
Nevertheless, the Ruger LCP has become a mainstay in my EDC rotation for its lightweight, small size, and extreme concealability, so I need to keep it fed.

Upon watching many .380 ACP ammo tests on YouTube, I've pretty much arrived at the conclusion that the vast majority of JHP ammo performs poorly, either completely failing to expand and therefore essentially functioning as an overpriced FMJ or otherwise expanding perfectly yet only penetrating 8-10" in Gel. Meanwhile, flat-nosed FMJ seems to perform much better, penetrating up to 19" in gel with minimal risk of collateral damage.
So I'm really struggling to convince myself that it's worth paying up to a dollar or more for JHP ammo in exchange for minimum acceptable performance at best, with carefully selected ammunition.

Thoughts?
Use Lehigh and your problems disappear
 
Agreed. It's not rocket science.
Correct!

It actually may not even be science - or at least as much science as implied - I have no critizism of what folks do it, heck I've shot about everything from water, to water soaked newsprint (there is actually an IWBA protocol for newsprint and a calibration scale), to wax, to duxseal to 10% Ordnance gel and even Clear Ballistics Gel - and a bunch more.

As the Buffalo Bore, Tim Sundles, guy keeps saying ; none of those materials are living breathing animals or humans. And even if they were, one animal will behave unlike the next even with exactly the same placment. If you have not seen a 150 lb deer walk off from a perfectly placed 150 gr. .300 winchester magnum, you may not have seen enough living things shot (mind you they don't usually go all that far). Then again, I shot a small button buck at 25 yards with an 8" .357 Magnum dead center of the "A-zone" with a 125gr. Remington SJHP and had to track the thing 440 yards in thick woods!

We had a retired state police detective hired on to our S.O. after he retired - while he was a state trooper he shot a armed woman in the face with his S&W 66 loaded with Remington 125gr JHP - the bullet bounced off her cheek! But, while she did not lose her feet, she did drop the gun she was holding - he considered that a win ;)

I have looked at too many shootings of both humans and animals to think that science has a lot to do with the results - though I do know a bit about "ballistic modeling" having studied it since I was a teenager. No, I do not thing there are any perfect models - some might get closer than others but none can factor in the mental and physical conditon of the "shootee" - only solid CNS hits are fast enough unless you are lucky and get a "quit".

Just Rambln'

Riposte
 
...
As the Buffalo Bore, Tim Sundles, guy keeps saying ; none of those materials are living breathing animals or humans. And even if they were, one animal will behave unlike the next even with exactly the same placment. If you have not seen a 150 lb deer walk off from a perfectly placed 150 gr. .300 winchester magnum, you may not have seen enough living things shot (mind you they don't usually go all that far). Then again, I shot a small button buck at 25 yards with an 8" .357 Magnum dead center of the "A-zone" with a 125gr. Remington SJHP and had to track the thing 440 yards in thick woods!

We had a retired state police detective hired on to our S.O. after he retired - while he was a state trooper he shot a armed woman in the face with his S&W 66 loaded with Remington 125gr JHP - the bullet bounced off her cheek! But, while she did not lose her feet, she did drop the gun she was holding - he considered that a win ;)
...

41 year retired copper here (+20 NYPD, retired lt., +20 Chief of Police in MA). While in the NYPD I was a homicide detective for a while. Bullets do the strangest things when impacting a person. Many just "slap off" the person hit, seen that at least twice with .45 ACP rounds. Many bounce off the skull (round, hard and lubricated surface, so, duh). And then there was the guy (young healthy looking guy) who dropped like a rock from a single 25 ACP/6.35mm round in the lower back. Go figure.

The above is why I avoid "best caliber/bullets" debates!

Rich

The .25 ACP one shot I spoke of:
47 PDU .25 one shot stop01.webp
 
I have to agree on the Walther. I have a PPK 308, 1967 vintage. I don't recall ever having a misfeed with it and I've owned this pistol since 1976. I did purchase a case of FMJ flat nose Winchester recently. I remember looking at it and thinking "that will never feed"...Zero issues so far with it. The PPK is an amazing little pistol, my only complaint being you really have to watch how you grip it...hammer bite (and I have small hands).
 
Caliber, velocity, penetration, gel test, placement, wound cavity, expansion, over penetration, blah, blah, blah….

For me, I go to the range once or twice a month with 3 or 4 firearms.

I practice hitting the A-zone on paper targets at 4, 7, and 10 yards.

Statistically, and we all know about statistics, the chance of ME being in a self-defense encounter is less than 1%, BUT… I still practice and pretend I can draw my defense carry and fire 1 round into the A-zone in less than 1 second.

I practice with a 2-hand grip, dominant hand grip, and my left-hand grip. I practice with iron sights, a red dot, and green and red lasers. A typical range day will include 3 to 12 of my range buddies. It's about 1-hour of showing off and breathing gun powder gas and lead. It's fun. It is usually the very best Saturday of any given month. Then we head to our favorite restaurant for lunch and "shoot the poop" with the best hole-punching deplorables I know….THAT is way more fun than shooting any firearm.
 
I carry Remington Golden Saber 380 ACP in my LCP. The Golden Sabers are designed to expand at 380 speeds.
 
Let's light this fire. Most of this is junk science. Looks pretty and is fun to see but all garbage. Using Jell-o that moves when you shoot it does nothing, absolutely nothing. Aside from Hollywood, have you ever seen a real life shooting where a person gets blown back? In Jell-o blocks there are no bones, cartilage, liquid, food, gall stones, and what ever else may be in a person. If you rely on someone shooting a block of Jell-o then you deserve what you get. If you are carrying a 380, it is for up close personal protection. What you need to rely on is that 1) the bad guy will see you have a gun and react differently, 2) you hit him enough times to allow you to escape, and 3) you make enough noise to get help.

If you are hitting someone multiple times, you are not sure what the last round is doing, especially if you hit close to the first round. Shoot and run. You run to fight another day. You are not Dirty Harry, shooting 1 bullet into someone, knocking them off their feet and then walking up to see what you did.

PLEASE people, be realistic, location, location, location. Use good ammo and a good gun.
 
Let's light this fire. Most of this is junk science. Looks pretty and is fun to see but all garbage. Using Jell-o that moves when you shoot it does nothing, absolutely nothing. Aside from Hollywood, have you ever seen a real life shooting where a person gets blown back? In Jell-o blocks there are no bones, cartilage, liquid, food, gall stones, and what ever else may be in a person. If you rely on someone shooting a block of Jell-o then you deserve what you get. If you are carrying a 380, it is for up close personal protection. What you need to rely on is that 1) the bad guy will see you have a gun and react differently, 2) you hit him enough times to allow you to escape, and 3) you make enough noise to get help.

If you are hitting someone multiple times, you are not sure what the last round is doing, especially if you hit close to the first round. Shoot and run. You run to fight another day. You are not Dirty Harry, shooting 1 bullet into someone, knocking them off their feet and then walking up to see what you did.

PLEASE people, be realistic, location, location, location. Use good ammo and a good gun.
Not words the Internet dream gunfighters and gadgeteers want to hear.
 
IMHO, I believe flat point is crap and likely made because some were dropped on the floor when still mailable and they didn't want to put them through the recycle process. The stuff is unstable because of the flat nose. JHP may not be the most cost effective but the design makes it more accurate. And that, to me, makes it more cost effective. I reload my own and have tested both extensively for myself and not for public consumption. The hollow tip, according to my studies, creates a wind pocket that helps stabilize the bullet. Flat points tend to tumble in flight because of the flat top surface. I just get more accuracy from JHP than any other. But JHP tend to be more expensive too.
I can see it in my minds eye....... The ghost of Elmer Keith rolling his eyes......:rolleyes:
 
I'm long overdue to rotate the defensive ammo I carry in my Ruger LCP so I've been shopping for ammo, but after years of carrying .40 S&W as a primary carry gun, the prices on defensive .380 ACP seem outright offensive.
For years I carried some flavor of 90gr XTP because that's what seemed to consistently perform well in Gel Tests in terms of achieving minimal FBI Specifications. Unfortunately, the cost of such ammo seems to average out at 1¢ per grain, as the average 90gr XTP seems to cost 90¢ per round, which just seems like too much for minimum acceptable performance after years of carrying .40 S&W which obviously offers peak performance for a fraction of the price.
Nevertheless, the Ruger LCP has become a mainstay in my EDC rotation for its lightweight, small size, and extreme concealability, so I need to keep it fed.

Upon watching many .380 ACP ammo tests on YouTube, I've pretty much arrived at the conclusion that the vast majority of JHP ammo performs poorly, either completely failing to expand and therefore essentially functioning as an overpriced FMJ or otherwise expanding perfectly yet only penetrating 8-10" in Gel. Meanwhile, flat-nosed FMJ seems to perform much better, penetrating up to 19" in gel with minimal risk of collateral damage.
So I'm really struggling to convince myself that it's worth paying up to a dollar or more for JHP ammo in exchange for minimum acceptable performance at best, with carefully selected ammunition.

Thoughts?
IMHO..... This is just my choice....
In spite of the questionable performance of some JHP .380 rounds, there's also some out there that are more likely to open up a bit. For that reason, I'll stick with a quality JHP. If it opens, great. If it doesn't, then it'll act like a FMJ-FP anyway. If the cost of 20 or 25 rounds of JHP is prohibitive, then stretch the box by loading 3 or 4 JHPs on top, and the rest can be the FMJ-FPs.
 
My Shield .380 EZ has a 3.6" barrel, not exactly a 'pocket pistol. But I'm really picky about the ammo I use. Sig V-Crowns and Precision One's XTP loading are top of the list. I think that Gold Dots are good, too, though they fell shy on penetration, they still get 11" consistently, so they are my next choice.
 
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Correct me If I am wrong but if you measure a block of anything that is rectangular including a gelatin block a bullet that travels from say the upper edge of the front of the block to the lower edge of the rear of the block rather than traveling a straight line from the front of the block to the back of the block the bullet will actually travel a longer distance when firing into the block from the upper edge making it less likely the bullet will exit the block not more likely. To speed things up just measure a business card this way and see the extra distance from the upper edge on the left side to the lower edge of the card on the right side as compared to measuring it "on the level" from left to right.
I don't think they do it intentionally. When the testers realize what they have done their reaction is that they made a mistake. By intentionally firing at an angle-corner to corner so to speak-they would only gain a couple of inches of gelatin for the bullet to potentially travel.
 
I can see it in my minds eye....... The ghost of Elmer Keith rolling his eyes......:rolleyes:

IMHO, I believe flat point is crap and likely made because some were dropped on the floor when still mailable and they didn't want to put them through the recycle process. The stuff is unstable because of the flat nose. JHP may not be the most cost effective but the design makes it more accurate. And that, to me, makes it more cost effective. I reload my own and have tested both extensively for myself and not for public consumption. The hollow tip, according to my studies, creates a wind pocket that helps stabilize the bullet. Flat points tend to tumble in flight because of the flat top surface. I just get more accuracy from JHP than any other. But JHP tend to be more expensive too.
Your statement about flat points being "made because some were dropped on the floor when still malleable" may be the dumbest statement I have seen made on this forum, If you were serious.
 
Does user Abnormal own the patent for the cartridge drop fixture which produces uniform flats of one half bullet diameter by the thousands? If jackets are THAT soft I would like to buy some expanding FMJ ammo in .380. Link please!
 
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