.380 ACP: Flat-Point FMJ vs JHP

[bph9]

I find it amusing that so many of the you-tube testers fail to line up the gelatin blocks correctly and waste shots and skew results by not elevating the front of the blocks a few inches before firing. What happens is that when they fire, the barrel of the gun is higher than the table that holds the blocks, so they end up firing down at a slight angle which allows the bullet to exit out of the bottom of the block, which renders the result of that shot as meaningless.
Why is that simple concept of firing at a proper angle from the git-go so elusive for some people?

Correct me If I am wrong but if you measure a block of anything that is rectangular including a gelatin block a bullet that travels from say the upper edge of the front of the block to the lower edge of the rear of the block rather than traveling a straight line from the front of the block to the back of the block the bullet will actually travel a longer distance when firing into the block from the upper edge making it less likely the bullet will exit the block not more likely. To speed things up just measure a business card this way and see the extra distance from the upper edge on the left side to the lower edge of the card on the right side as compared to measuring it "on the level" from left to right.

 

[TopWater]

I'm long overdue to rotate the defensive ammo I carry in my Ruger LCP so I've been shopping for ammo, but after years of carrying .40 S&W as a primary carry gun, the prices on defensive .380 ACP seem outright offensive.
For years I carried some flavor of 90gr XTP because that's what seemed to consistently perform well in Gel Tests in terms of achieving minimal FBI Specifications. Unfortunately, the cost of such ammo seems to average out at 1¢ per grain, as the average 90gr XTP seems to cost 90¢ per round, which just seems like too much for minimum acceptable performance after years of carrying .40 S&W which obviously offers peak performance for a fraction of the price.
Nevertheless, the Ruger LCP has become a mainstay in my EDC rotation for its lightweight, small size, and extreme concealability, so I need to keep it fed.

Upon watching many .380 ACP ammo tests on YouTube, I've pretty much arrived at the conclusion that the vast majority of JHP ammo performs poorly, either completely failing to expand and therefore essentially functioning as an overpriced FMJ or otherwise expanding perfectly yet only penetrating 8-10" in Gel. Meanwhile, flat-nosed FMJ seems to perform much better, penetrating up to 19" in gel with minimal risk of collateral damage.
So I'm really struggling to convince myself that it's worth paying up to a dollar or more for JHP ammo in exchange for minimum acceptable performance at best, with carefully selected ammunition.

Thoughts?

This might help if you haven't seen it before.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

 

[BB57]

Correct me If I am wrong but if you measure a block of anything that is rectangular including a gelatin block a bullet that travels from say the upper edge of the front of the block to the lower edge of the rear of the block rather than traveling a straight line from the front of the block to the back of the block the bullet will actually travel a longer distance when firing into the block from the upper edge making it less likely the bullet will exit the block not more likely. To speed things up just measure a business card this way and see the extra distance from the upper edge on the left side to the lower edge of the card on the right side as compared to measuring it "on the level" from left to right.

You are correct. But...

With a 6" by 6" by 16" gel block if you entered the block at the very top edge at a perfect 20.556 degree angle, it's still only 17.08" to the opposite edge.

If you entered at the top right corner and exited at the bottom left corner the distance is still only 18.1".

And it's good for only 1 shot. The juice just isn't worth the squeeze for another inch or two of block length when you can just set a second block behind it and use all the gel much more efficiently.

 

[Dump1567]

Before Paul Harrell passed, he did his meat target test with the Hornady CD 90 gr. and got good results. Which seems to mirror Lucky gunners results. I use the Hornandy and based the Gel test results I've seen, the Federal Hydra-shok deep.

One thing that isn't discussed much, is a HP that doesn't expand. Based on Gel tests I've seen, these seem to cut through gel better and leave a good wound channel over a FMJ. You just need one that doesn't over penetrate. I think this is the direction Gun Sam (youtuber) goes with his .380 choice.

Based on LG's chart, the Rem. HTP looks ideal for that. 16.8" of penetration and a decent would channel. No expansion, but also no overpenetration.

 

[Eddietruett]

I'm long overdue to rotate the defensive ammo I carry in my Ruger LCP so I've been shopping for ammo, but after years of carrying .40 S&W as a primary carry gun, the prices on defensive .380 ACP seem outright offensive.
For years I carried some flavor of 90gr XTP because that's what seemed to consistently perform well in Gel Tests in terms of achieving minimal FBI Specifications. Unfortunately, the cost of such ammo seems to average out at 1¢ per grain, as the average 90gr XTP seems to cost 90¢ per round, which just seems like too much for minimum acceptable performance after years of carrying .40 S&W which obviously offers peak performance for a fraction of the price.
Nevertheless, the Ruger LCP has become a mainstay in my EDC rotation for its lightweight, small size, and extreme concealability, so I need to keep it fed.

Upon watching many .380 ACP ammo tests on YouTube, I've pretty much arrived at the conclusion that the vast majority of JHP ammo performs poorly, either completely failing to expand and therefore essentially functioning as an overpriced FMJ or otherwise expanding perfectly yet only penetrating 8-10" in Gel. Meanwhile, flat-nosed FMJ seems to perform much better, penetrating up to 19" in gel with minimal risk of collateral damage.
So I'm really struggling to convince myself that it's worth paying up to a dollar or more for JHP ammo in exchange for minimum acceptable performance at best, with carefully selected ammunition.

Thoughts?

Use Lehigh and your problems disappear

 

[Riposte1]

Agreed. It's not rocket science.

Correct!

It actually may not even be science - or at least as much science as implied - I have no critizism of what folks do it, heck I've shot about everything from water, to water soaked newsprint (there is actually an IWBA protocol for newsprint and a calibration scale), to wax, to duxseal to 10% Ordnance gel and even Clear Ballistics Gel - and a bunch more.

As the Buffalo Bore, Tim Sundles, guy keeps saying ; none of those materials are living breathing animals or humans. And even if they were, one animal will behave unlike the next even with exactly the same placment. If you have not seen a 150 lb deer walk off from a perfectly placed 150 gr. .300 winchester magnum, you may not have seen enough living things shot (mind you they don't usually go all that far). Then again, I shot a small button buck at 25 yards with an 8" .357 Magnum dead center of the "A-zone" with a 125gr. Remington SJHP and had to track the thing 440 yards in thick woods!

We had a retired state police detective hired on to our S.O. after he retired - while he was a state trooper he shot a armed woman in the face with his S&W 66 loaded with Remington 125gr JHP - the bullet bounced off her cheek! But, while she did not lose her feet, she did drop the gun she was holding - he considered that a win

I have looked at too many shootings of both humans and animals to think that science has a lot to do with the results - though I do know a bit about "ballistic modeling" having studied it since I was a teenager. No, I do not thing there are any perfect models - some might get closer than others but none can factor in the mental and physical conditon of the "shootee" - only solid CNS hits are fast enough unless you are lucky and get a "quit".

Just Rambln'

Riposte

 

[RichCapeCod]

...
As the Buffalo Bore, Tim Sundles, guy keeps saying ; none of those materials are living breathing animals or humans. And even if they were, one animal will behave unlike the next even with exactly the same placment. If you have not seen a 150 lb deer walk off from a perfectly placed 150 gr. .300 winchester magnum, you may not have seen enough living things shot (mind you they don't usually go all that far). Then again, I shot a small button buck at 25 yards with an 8" .357 Magnum dead center of the "A-zone" with a 125gr. Remington SJHP and had to track the thing 440 yards in thick woods!

We had a retired state police detective hired on to our S.O. after he retired - while he was a state trooper he shot a armed woman in the face with his S&W 66 loaded with Remington 125gr JHP - the bullet bounced off her cheek! But, while she did not lose her feet, she did drop the gun she was holding - he considered that a win
...

41 year retired copper here (+20 NYPD, retired lt., +20 Chief of Police in MA). While in the NYPD I was a homicide detective for a while. Bullets do the strangest things when impacting a person. Many just "slap off" the person hit, seen that at least twice with .45 ACP rounds. Many bounce off the skull (round, hard and lubricated surface, so, duh). And then there was the guy (young healthy looking guy) who dropped like a rock from a single 25 ACP/6.35mm round in the lower back. Go figure.

The above is why I avoid "best caliber/bullets" debates!

Rich

The .25 ACP one shot I spoke of:

 

[Kbar04]

I have to agree on the Walther. I have a PPK 308, 1967 vintage. I don't recall ever having a misfeed with it and I've owned this pistol since 1976. I did purchase a case of FMJ flat nose Winchester recently. I remember looking at it and thinking "that will never feed"...Zero issues so far with it. The PPK is an amazing little pistol, my only complaint being you really have to watch how you grip it...hammer bite (and I have small hands).

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

FMJ versus JHP?

What ever one is 100% reliable for you. Because what works for me may not work for you.

 

[GnarlsR2]

Caliber, velocity, penetration, gel test, placement, wound cavity, expansion, over penetration, blah, blah, blah….

For me, I go to the range once or twice a month with 3 or 4 firearms.

I practice hitting the A-zone on paper targets at 4, 7, and 10 yards.

Statistically, and we all know about statistics, the chance of ME being in a self-defense encounter is less than 1%, BUT… I still practice and pretend I can draw my defense carry and fire 1 round into the A-zone in less than 1 second.

I practice with a 2-hand grip, dominant hand grip, and my left-hand grip. I practice with iron sights, a red dot, and green and red lasers. A typical range day will include 3 to 12 of my range buddies. It's about 1-hour of showing off and breathing gun powder gas and lead. It's fun. It is usually the very best Saturday of any given month. Then we head to our favorite restaurant for lunch and "shoot the poop" with the best hole-punching deplorables I know….THAT is way more fun than shooting any firearm.

 

[Smeckler]

I carry Remington Golden Saber 380 ACP in my LCP. The Golden Sabers are designed to expand at 380 speeds.

 

[IAM Rand]

Let's light this fire. Most of this is junk science. Looks pretty and is fun to see but all garbage. Using Jell-o that moves when you shoot it does nothing, absolutely nothing. Aside from Hollywood, have you ever seen a real life shooting where a person gets blown back? In Jell-o blocks there are no bones, cartilage, liquid, food, gall stones, and what ever else may be in a person. If you rely on someone shooting a block of Jell-o then you deserve what you get. If you are carrying a 380, it is for up close personal protection. What you need to rely on is that 1) the bad guy will see you have a gun and react differently, 2) you hit him enough times to allow you to escape, and 3) you make enough noise to get help.

If you are hitting someone multiple times, you are not sure what the last round is doing, especially if you hit close to the first round. Shoot and run. You run to fight another day. You are not Dirty Harry, shooting 1 bullet into someone, knocking them off their feet and then walking up to see what you did.

PLEASE people, be realistic, location, location, location. Use good ammo and a good gun.

 

[rockquarry]

Let's light this fire. Most of this is junk science. Looks pretty and is fun to see but all garbage. Using Jell-o that moves when you shoot it does nothing, absolutely nothing. Aside from Hollywood, have you ever seen a real life shooting where a person gets blown back? In Jell-o blocks there are no bones, cartilage, liquid, food, gall stones, and what ever else may be in a person. If you rely on someone shooting a block of Jell-o then you deserve what you get. If you are carrying a 380, it is for up close personal protection. What you need to rely on is that 1) the bad guy will see you have a gun and react differently, 2) you hit him enough times to allow you to escape, and 3) you make enough noise to get help.

If you are hitting someone multiple times, you are not sure what the last round is doing, especially if you hit close to the first round. Shoot and run. You run to fight another day. You are not Dirty Harry, shooting 1 bullet into someone, knocking them off their feet and then walking up to see what you did.

PLEASE people, be realistic, location, location, location. Use good ammo and a good gun.

Not words the Internet dream gunfighters and gadgeteers want to hear.