Need schooling on Titegroup powder

[stu1ritter]

So Skip you are saying that you guys with progressive presses are eyeballing every round you make to see if it has enough powder and can tell if it is off?
I know there are powder alarms but who much does it take before the alarm sounds?

The only time I look into each case was when I batch loaded on a reloading tray. If I did that now on a turret press I would crank out 20 rounds an hour.

I think I recall someone blowing up a gun using Titegroup

While I don't use Tightgroup I have loaded 10's of thousands of rounds of .45 and .38 with Bullseye. I have a powder cop and test it everytime I set up a powder charge weight change. No powder, locks the press (LNL), single charge breezes through, double charge locks the press. The powder cop die is peace of mind if set properly and tested.
Stu

 

[Fishslayer]

I'm confused by the content of the powder burn rate discussions. I'm also confused by the differences in the burn rate charts I reviewed. But then I'm easily confused.

As I understand it differences in testing techniques and other variables cause the burn rate charts to differ.

I've had pretty good results with Green Dot in .45ACP, 9mm & .38 Special. A tad slower than Bullseye and has roughly double the bulk if you're worried about a double charge. Impossible in 9mm and really noticable in .45ACP.

I won't touch Titegroup with a pole.

 

[Skip Sackett]

So Skip you are saying that you guys with progressive presses are eyeballing every round you make to see if it has enough powder and can tell if it is off?

I did this just the other night again. I have several heads setup for my XL650, different calibers. I only have one powder alarm and it can be a pain to get setup so, sometimes, I forgo doing so. With the die that holds it removed, and the ram in the up position, the case is right in front of your nose and it is just like looking into a loading block other than there is only one case there.
Then, when the ram is lowered, and the next step is to seat the bullet, you can look into it there as well, and should look by the way.
Using a progressive is not a reason to get mindless and careless. I still follow good reloading practices, case fill, eyeballing each case, check weight of every so often, check OAL during the run, so on and so forth......

I didn't feel like I dealt with that very well so I thought I would address it more clearly.

 

[stu1ritter]

I agree with Skip, the process of reloading is the same, single stage or progressive, just the progressive makes life a little easier and faster. The same care must be applied using either. Powder cop or eyeball, you have to check just to be sure. If I ever loose my cadence with the progressive I clear the shell holder and process each case from the stage it stopped at, going forward and finishing them one at a time. Haven't doubled or squibbed in a very long time.
Stu

 

[steamloco76]

Leading due to high flame temp was my one and only reason for abandoning Titegroup. As soon as I switched back to Unique and Bullseye the leading stopped.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Had an incident, want to share.

So Skip you are saying that you guys with progressive presses are eyeballing every round you make to see if it has enough powder and can tell if it is off?
I know there are powder alarms but who much does it take before the alarm sounds?

Son in law #2, his wife (our daughter #2) and their baby came to visit for Christmas. He has been so busy at home, he has not been able to load for the Glock 22RTF I gave him so, he just brought the components here and we are going to load them up for/with him.

Since it was my gun, I have a load worked up for it, 6.6gr SR4756, 180gr Ranier or Berry plated bullet and a longer than normal OAL of 1.125". That thing put that load out at 1000fps or just under from that firearm. It was safe and never gave me one piece of brass that looked "glocked", never. Win/win.

The load we decided on when I bought my M&P 40S&W full size was one to mimic our son #2's load for the duty gun he was issued. They use a 155gr bullet at 1200fps or close to it and we went to Longshot to develop that one. Lower pressure yet with more velocity. Although, we didn't need to worry about it because it has a fully supported chamber.

Well, as Rule asked, how do us guys that use progressive presses check powder charges. I mentioned that I looked into each case. He then asked how I could tell the difference while doing so. Tonight, I proved that it can be done and done successfully.

Case in point: Loading those 40S&W mentioned last and for this particular run, I did not put the powder alarm on my XL650. Now, I was doing 100 rounds every 10 minutes or so, not the fastest but, fast, when I went to set a bullet on a case with powder in that station. I said: "Uh oh, got a problem." And I cleared the press. Upon examination, the once fired brass that I had purchased, nice cleaned nickel plated stuff right from the original bag, had one problem, must have been some green house flies in the seller's house that decided that one had to die in that bag of brass! Well, that one case had the remains of one of those flies in it. Since my case fill is a lot, it was a simple thing to see as that case came spinning into the bullet seating station.
Easily removed and back on to loading. The reason that it was easily caught was because of case fill. It didn't cause the powder to run out by any means, but, it did raise it enough that a trained eye could tell the difference.

So, when I am not using my powder alarm, I use my eyes more, pay closer attention and, with enough practice, it can be done successfully. It really helps on this particular machine because there is another filled case on the shell plate at the same time to compare to......

 

[richp0169]

Tightgroup

I was able to secure 3 lbs at $16/per and haven't used any yet. I currently am using Ramshot Silhouette for my pistol loads and I am very happy with the performance, metering, etc.

I haven't used it, no comment on it, but by all accounts its a very usable powder for a lot of applications. Looking forward to experimenting with it.

 

[Magload]

I started off reloading about this time last year after not loading for 48 years. Tight Group was all I could find at the time and I used it in 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP and really liked the stuff. I just glanced and the case after the powder drop before setting the bullet on top. A double charge is easy to see. Well ran out and had to buy CFE Pistol and been using it since. BTW I only load plated, coated or jacketed bullets. Don

 

[muddocktor]

Guys, this thread is going on 4 years old. It might be better to start a new thread on the subject.

 

[venomballistics]

Guys, this thread is going on 4 years old. It might be better to start a new thread on the subject.

this is why I load some zombie ammo.
First it's posts rising from the dead, next thing you know, David Bowie stops in for tea.

 

[hzx8n3]

Titegroup loads

I've been using TG for years mainly as a reduced 357 load with both plated & jacketed bullets. Works great - I do not use it for magnum loads - just target. Chronograph for 6.7 gns with a 125 gn jacketed bullet averages 1240 fps in my 66, 686 & Ruger Speed six - all guns 4" barrel

 

[otisrush]

I agree with the OP: TG is a whipping boy re: iffy/hot/"dangerous" powders.

I'd be interested in understanding if there is any objective data or reports that show there really IS an increased rate of problems with its use as compared to other powders. My *guess* is that a good chunk of its reputation comes from concerns simply being repeated by others. Of course things like low case fill and other characteristics of TG are fact, not opinion. But what I've found over the years (in any topic online) is that there can be a difference between the theory of what might be a problem vs the practicality and likelihood that it actually is a problem. For example, a car might have in its spec a max stopping distance that is the longest in the industry. Many people could look at that and report "I didn't buy that car because the stopping distance is so long." And, yes, they made their buying decision based on that data...and it's objective data. But it doesn't NECESSARILY follow that that car gets in more accidents BECAUSE it has the longest stopping distance.

I'm a new reloader (been doing so for about 1.5 years) and I use TG (and have only used TG) for 9mm. Is it the wisest choice for a new reloader? I presume not. I have had zero issues with it. I load on a single stage, and I do quite a number of things to help keep me out of trouble. I've never put a double-charged 9mm case next to a single-charged case to see how different they look. But even with that double charging is only one potentially bad scenario. You could certainly go way way over max without double charging. But I believe (and hope) that my checks and balances in my processes will minimize (I know it can't eliminate) the chances of having a problem.

I can only point to economics and outstanding metering as the pluses I see in TG. (Well - besides the fact it was the only pistol powder I could find at the time. ) But I will say - just like with any reloading - be careful.

OR

 

[venomballistics]

The way I see TG, it's not a powder for the beginner.
If ever I recommend it, it will not be on this, or any other forum.
Reason is based in the simple logic that if your asking about it, you probably lack the experience to use it.
Those with the skill to use it wouldn't have need to ask my opinion, they have their own.

 

[Rule3]

this is why I load some zombie ammo.
First it's posts rising from the dead, next thing you know, David Bowie stops in for tea.

Necro Tea with a sprinkle of Stardust?

 

[fredj338]

So Skip you are saying that you guys with progressive presses are eyeballing every round you make to see if it has enough powder and can tell if it is off?
I know there are powder alarms but who much does it take before the alarm sounds?

The only time I look into each case was when I batch loaded on a reloading tray. If I did that now on a turret press I would crank out 20 rounds an hour.

I think I recall someone blowing up a gun using Titegroup

Yep, every single case gets a visual or if i cant see the charge, i'll grudgingly trust the powder check die.
The negatives with TG are many, the benefits few, so i pass for powders with sim benefits & fewer negatives.
The two biggest issues are low loft & high heat. I want a powder that if doubled, can easily be seen. Not so with TG in larger cases. The high heat is the other issue. It burns hot enough to vaporize bullet lube on cast, hence the greater smoke. Hot enough to make the slide on your gun too hot to touch in a long/fast string. Cost & repeatable vel are the good things, but i can get that with several other powders like red dot, ram comp, wst, even clays.
Cost doesnt even come into my discussion of powders. Powder in a service pistol load is the cheaest part. So 1c or 3/4c per rd, who cares, false economy. I want the powder to perform 1st, cost is a distant 2nd.

 

[Forrest r]

I look at titegroup as a Darwin award. It was put on this earth to thin the herd.

It has an extremely high short start pressure.

Don't know if it's the caliber's or the reloaders but there seems to be allot of kabooms with titegroup/9mm's/40s&w's along with lite loads in the 500s&w.

The one I liked the best (on another website) was the guy that said he shot 1000's of 9mm bullets using titegroup and small rifle primers. Used titegroup because of the low cost and used the small rifle primers so he only had to buy 1 primer for everything. The only negative thing he saw with this combo was that he got a ring of pitting on the breech face of his slides.

Brilliant!!!
Didn't bother to tell him the pitting was flame cutting from the powder because the primer never sealed the primer pocket in the cases.

As they say "You can lead a horse to water, only to watch them drown".

 

[fredj338]

I agree, TG is NOT a powder for beginners, too many things to go wrong. Guys used to KB guns with BE, losing track of the powder charge & getting a double. Today it's TG. Put a dbl into a 40, you are likely to miss it & it will KB. Way worse in any of the rev rds. So I just avoid it. It does nothing for me other powders with less negatives can do. If I fell into 24# of it, I would trade it off for something else, even give it away, but then I would feel bad for anyone else using it.

 

[otisrush]

I agree, TG is NOT a powder for beginners, too many things to go wrong. Guys used to KB guns with BE, losing track of the powder charge & getting a double. Today it's TG. Put a dbl into a 40, you are likely to miss it & it will KB. Way worse in any of the rev rds. So I just avoid it. It does nothing for me other powders with less negatives can do. If I fell into 24# of it, I would trade it off for something else, even give it away, but then I would feel bad for anyone else using it.

This is extremely significant, IMHO: The clearness of the communication and the credentials of the person stating them.

Frankly, I thought my post a few messages up was going to generate a number of "Yeah - although TG has to be severely respected - it has a worse reputation than it deserves."

I'm not only NOT hearing that, but getting additional data to suggest many stay away from it for a number of very valid reasons.

I think the time has come for me to forget TG and go on to something else. I've got some HP-38 that I use for .38 Spcl. I may give that a try. I hear PowerPistol is liked. And I should probably get some Bullseye.

Thanks for the information that is shared here!

OR

PS: It's 9mm I would be needing a different powder for.

 

[fredj338]

All of those powders are very diff. So depends on what you want to do.
TG is ok using plated or jacketed bullets at target vel IF YOU PAY REALLY CLOSE attention. It's just too easy to miss a dbl in cases larger than 9mm, maybe 40. I personally never understood the powder manuf reason, but cost, to make a powder that occupies such a small amount of space. The better choice would be a powder twice as bulky for the same weight, so seeing a double charge is so obvious it can not be missed. Trail Boss comes to mind, but that is more than twice so not useful in small cases like 380, 9mm or 40. I am happy with any powder that fills a case at least 1/3 full, half is better. Then any over charge is easily spotted.

 

[Thomas15]

I have a book titled The Glock In Competition which is a bit dated, I think for the early 1990s or so. The book contains a chapter or two on handloads and speaks about KBs using Bullseye in the same manner that many talk about Titegroup today.

Personally I don't see anyone warning about KBs with VV310 which is very similar density. And folks talk about Bullseye as if it's magic. But Titegroup seems to be despised by some. The fact of the matter is a double charge is going to be painful no matter which power you use.

It's a fair criticism of Titegroup that it is smoky with cast bullets. So if you use cast find one of the 30 odd other powders out there. If you use Jacketed, plated or coated then TG is ok to use.

When there was no powder on your LGS powder shelf there was Titegroup. Hodgdon as a company has it's flaws and TG isn't perfect but many high volume shooters use it with no problems.