Rastoff
US Veteran
Nice story KYBHOTBS. It's a perfect example of what not to do.
Fast Draw
- Thread starter Ghost Magnum
- Start date
Welcome to the forum, KYBHOTBS.
Could you tell us a little more about your training and experience such that you know unequivocally you can draw from concealment, get on target and send rounds faster than a trigger can be pulled once?
Scary experience. Glad everything turned out okay. Since you've elected to share your armed self-defense experience, a couple questions:
Could you tell us a little more about what prompted you -- after fending off two armed strangers from your home and successfully protecting your family -- to chase off into the night after the perps, compromising your tactical advantage as well as leaving your son and wife to their own defenses?
How were you able to see the one gunman in the dark at 60 yards pointing a gun at you before bringing your weapon light into play?
Did your shots hit their mark? If so, how'd the varmint rounds fair on a two-legged?
How did law enforcement treat you and the incident once determining you had aggressively pursued a fight even after the threat had retreated?
It isn't always being fast or even accurate that counts. It's being willing.
I found out early that most men, regardless of cause or need, aren't
willing. They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull the trigger.
I won't. I'm with you John. John Wayne as J.B. Books in The Shootist.
I found out early that most men, regardless of cause or need, aren't
willing. They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull the trigger.
I won't. I'm with you John. John Wayne as J.B. Books in The Shootist.
Rastoff
US Veteran
Wow. 1.5 seconds, from concealment, at 7 yards? That's fast.
OP
Ghost Magnum
Member
Yeah, home invasion is always scary. There was a local pot head that tried to break into my cabin at 2:00 AM in the morning. He was a idiot. I used the 22 that night. It was a literal GET THE *blank* OFF MY LAWN! Kinda funny since I drive a Torino. That was all that happen that night "DON'T SHOOT, DON'T SHOOT, I WAS HUNTING HOGS AND LOOKING FOR MY DOGS!" Bull ****, but nothing happen again after that. Years ago when my Dad was working night shift. A drilling rig worker was spot lighting my parents house. I was 16 years old then. That lasted for ever. We called the police and it took a long LONG time to get to us. My Dad got a fast break to help us and ran the guy off before the police got here. Turns out there was only one Deputy active that night and his hands was tied. I kinda feel for him.
Mushin is an oriental word pronounced moo sheen. It means instantaneous
reaction without thought. Like in the martial arts it comes from endless
practice. When someone attacks you, if you have to think about how you
will react, you are toast.
It applies to other things we do in life as well. For example Yogi Berra
said "You can't hit and think at the same time".
Wyatt Earp said "The winner was usually the one who took his time - in
a hurry. You should go into action with the greatest speed your muscles
are capable of, but you should be mentally deliberate and muscularly
faster than thought."
Probably neither Yogi or Wyatt had ever heard of mushin, but that is
what they were talking about.
reaction without thought. Like in the martial arts it comes from endless
practice. When someone attacks you, if you have to think about how you
will react, you are toast.
It applies to other things we do in life as well. For example Yogi Berra
said "You can't hit and think at the same time".
Wyatt Earp said "The winner was usually the one who took his time - in
a hurry. You should go into action with the greatest speed your muscles
are capable of, but you should be mentally deliberate and muscularly
faster than thought."
Probably neither Yogi or Wyatt had ever heard of mushin, but that is
what they were talking about.
First I never said i could unequivocally out draw a already drawn firearm, I said I wasn't just going to stand there and not fight. I have used a handgun twice S&W M&P 9mm having only to fire one shot to stop the treat hits both times. The AR and varmint rounds are very nasty on a human being and yes all 3 shot hit there mark. My son is very well trained on the AR platform and also handguns. He has out shot everyone that has challenged him. Here in the state I live in I have every right to defend myself and love one inside or outside. If you know how to use darkness its your best concealment. Do you really need me to explain how I came from low ready and hit a target from only around 60 yards away (only reason I knew the distance was because I walked it off the next day ). How many 1000's of rounds have you put down range at night with a light or no light and still hit your target? Seems you missed the whole point of my post MINDSET and training. People read BS on these forums and take it for fact. Me I find out for myself what I can and can't do. Have you had your sights on a human being finger on the trigger and without a doubt in your mind you know you will pull the trigger? Will you fight through whatever is in your way to make sure you come out on top? Training lifelong. I could walk out my front door tomorrow and be shoot dead before I could react. But that is one of my training aspects, action is quicker than reaction. If you are ever in Ga and want to have a friendly competition day or night I have my on range here on my land. The term sheep, sheepdogs, and wolves is a lot older that the book Living with G Locks.
No that is average. Tuller drill proves an average person with a knife can cover 7 yards and have a blade in you in 1.5 seconds. If you are in condition yellow you go to orange before he gets that close. your in condition Red at 7 yards.
Rick O' Shay..Fast Draw
Hipshot is leaning on the bar drinking shots of whisky. A guy comes up and says, "Hipshot, I hear you are getting old and slowing down." Hipshot has his shot glass at face level, while the guy is talking down on Hipshot, he drops the whisky glass, pulls his gun and shoots a pitcher of beer on the bar, reholsters his gun and catches the glass at holster level and says something like, "You were saying..?" Of course the other guy shut up and left.
Not exactly a fast draw but... Hipshot is standing at the bar. Some old guy that Hipshot knows comes up and starts badmouthing him, telling him he going to blow daylight through him. Hipshot says, "Joe, you don't want to do that, you know you won't touch your gun and then you'll be dead." "I know Hipshot, but I've been working up to this and I'm all nerved up,...I can't stop myself" Hipshot swings and knocks him out of his boots. The guy's laying on the floor and says, "Thanks, Hipshot, I needed that." Hipshot replies, "My pleasure, son."
Hipshot is leaning on the bar drinking shots of whisky. A guy comes up and says, "Hipshot, I hear you are getting old and slowing down." Hipshot has his shot glass at face level, while the guy is talking down on Hipshot, he drops the whisky glass, pulls his gun and shoots a pitcher of beer on the bar, reholsters his gun and catches the glass at holster level and says something like, "You were saying..?" Of course the other guy shut up and left.
Not exactly a fast draw but... Hipshot is standing at the bar. Some old guy that Hipshot knows comes up and starts badmouthing him, telling him he going to blow daylight through him. Hipshot says, "Joe, you don't want to do that, you know you won't touch your gun and then you'll be dead." "I know Hipshot, but I've been working up to this and I'm all nerved up,...I can't stop myself" Hipshot swings and knocks him out of his boots. The guy's laying on the floor and says, "Thanks, Hipshot, I needed that." Hipshot replies, "My pleasure, son."
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Rastoff
US Veteran
Couldn't have said it better myself.
I'm very familiar with the Tueller Drill. It was designed to demonstrate how fast a person can move, not draw. If you can present your gun from concealment, and hit the target in the thoracic cavity in 1.5 seconds or less, you're fast, not average.
I can get a controlled pair on target, at 7 yards, from concealment in about 2.3 seconds. If I'm cold, about 2.6 seconds. With a little warm up I can get a controlled pair on target at 3 yards in 1.2 seconds, but that's on a good day.
Now, I'm not fast. The above times are just what I work toward. It can be done, but 1.5 seconds at 7 yards is fast, not average.
OP
Ghost Magnum
Member
Yeah, that knives vs Gun thing angers me. One of the first thing my Dad tought me about self defense is how horrible the knife is for personal defense. The guy with a large stick has a edge over the knife. A blade is better then nothing.
My Dads martial arts instructer did that and compleatly disproved all that Hollywood BS with a nerf gun and a rubber knife.
My Dads martial arts instructer did that and compleatly disproved all that Hollywood BS with a nerf gun and a rubber knife.
No, what you said was that in a race between the man with gun in hand, aimed and ready to fire, and the man whose firearm is holstered and concealed, it's "BS" that the first man has absolute advantage over the second.
Which defies credulity unless you can better explain your logic, and is very different from only saying that even at an overwhelming disadvantage you'd choose to fight it out.
By the way, holding fire until smart opportunity arises, increasing your odds of winning, is fighting it out, it just adds brains to bravado.
Circumstances? Ammunition used? Legal outcome? (Possums don't count...
)Nasty? Yes. Shallow, but certainly nasty. Like birdshot. How'd you come to choose gopher rounds for social work? What was the end result for the would-be intruder?
Still waiting to hear why you gave up tactical advantage to your opponents.
I didn't ask how you got your shot, I asked how -- in the darkness you favor -- you spotted your target at 60 yards training his rifle on you; presumably he enjoyed the same cover of darkness that you did, and mustn't have been under light because once spotting him you engaged your weapon light. But if you could see him without your weapon light, why did you ignite it before taking your shot? Why waste precious seconds when there's a gun on you?
No, I get it and agree -- mindset is critical. What was missed in your post is certain credible elements in how your encounter played out.
So true.
I train and am absolute in my willingness to protect myself and loved ones, too. Appreciate the invite, I'll keep it in mind if I'm ever passing through.
Until then, still waiting to hear how law enforcement handled your abandoning the safety of your home and chasing people in retreat, especially now that you confirm you shot one. That's a big deal, often even shows up in news reports...
V0OBWxZS16
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Are you referring to This is why you don't draw on a drawn gun! from Active Self Protection? You're right, that is a terrible example. The officer was killed because he could not release his pistol from his retention holster and not because he tried to draw on a drawn gun.
Greg Ellifritz surveyed the guns that his department seized from criminals. Of the 85 guns:
- 2 were loaded with the wrong ammo
- 24 were unloaded
- 4 were partially loaded
- 9 were non-functional
- 17 malfunctioned frequently
Most criminals have been trained by previous victims to expect compliance and not an immediate violent counterattack. Immediately stepping offline and producing a firearm makes you the actor and interferes with their OODA loop.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not telling you to go for the pistol or claiming you're guaranteed to win. I'm just pointing out the odds aren't as bad as we're usually lead to believe.
As I said previously, we are statistically more likely to be hurt if we
comply than we are if we fight. This is in agreement with statement
above by VOOBWxZS16.
As to the great debate: OPINIONS VARY!
comply than we are if we fight. This is in agreement with statement
above by VOOBWxZS16.
As to the great debate: OPINIONS VARY!
Donn I've seen that quote credited to Bat Masterson, Bill Jordan, et. al.
As a matter of fact I've said it a few times myself. But never the less it
is still true.
As a matter of fact I've said it a few times myself. But never the less it
is still true.
Per AZ Quotes, the exact quote is "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything. In a gunfight, you need to take your time in a hurry." I expect it's been borrowed and modified many times, but Earp's credited with it.
Watchdog
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OP
Ghost Magnum
Member
Its about time for this thread to die.
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