Sundancer2004
Member
You may be the fastest draw, however your speed is useless if you first shot does not hit ceñter mass.
Fast Draw
- Thread starter Ghost Magnum
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Both Jim Cirillo (NYPD) and Bob Stasch (Chicago PD) were in a lot of
gunfights, and both killed quite a few thugs. Jim said he only ever saw
2 one-shot stops. They were both to the brain. Bob only saw 1 one-shot
stop. I know center of exposed mass is the is the gold standard and what
I have always taught. But personally, I prefer, and practice, hitting lower
brain, just behind nose. Much higher probability of one-shot stop (if you
hit of course).
gunfights, and both killed quite a few thugs. Jim said he only ever saw
2 one-shot stops. They were both to the brain. Bob only saw 1 one-shot
stop. I know center of exposed mass is the is the gold standard and what
I have always taught. But personally, I prefer, and practice, hitting lower
brain, just behind nose. Much higher probability of one-shot stop (if you
hit of course).
We do a lot of very fast shooting during LEOSA certification but then most of us are using duty rigs and not drawing from concealment. I normally score in the mid to high 90's during this qualification but doubt I could get the shots off in time using pocket or IWB carry.
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No one has mentioned Bill Jordan yet, but he was pretty fast. Fast enough on the draw from his duty holster that he could hold a ping pong ball on the back of his hand just above his revolver, then drop his hand and draw his revolver so fast the ball would drop into his holster. He once said the hardest part of that trick was getting the ball into the holster from an angle standpoint, not from a speed to get the revolver out of the way standpoint. He was able to accomplish his fast shooting from the standard duty holster and belt of the day, not a rig made for speed.
And, it can be possible to out draw a pistol already pulled on you. All you have to be able to do is outdraw the opponent's reaction time.
Jordan himself demonstrated this in a court room during the trial of Ed Cantrell in Rock Springs, Wyoming when he testified as an expert witness for the defendant. Jordan drew and fired so fast his "opponent," holding a cocked weapon loaded with blanks, never got off a shot.
And, it can be possible to out draw a pistol already pulled on you. All you have to be able to do is outdraw the opponent's reaction time.
Jordan himself demonstrated this in a court room during the trial of Ed Cantrell in Rock Springs, Wyoming when he testified as an expert witness for the defendant. Jordan drew and fired so fast his "opponent," holding a cocked weapon loaded with blanks, never got off a shot.
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We used to shoot fast draw competitions at cowboy action matches. This was with single action revolvers in western holsters but the revolvers had special hammers, enlarged to facilitate cocking. Wax bullets, too - nobody wanted to lose any toes. Lots of guys were super fast but they'd lose because they missed the target. I was an old dude already when I played the game and without practice I was still significantly under a second AND hit the target. The record is somewhere in the .3 second range - way faster than my time which I think was .7xx and I lost to younger guys but nobody was at .3xx.
The whole trick is smooth draw, cock while drawing (not safe with real bullets my friends!), there's a body bend involved (I would NOT like to try that any longer thank you very much) which I cannot actually explain but you can find plenty of these competitions on line.
Bob Munden could shoot two shots out of a single action Colt faster than he could using a 1911. You might be able to find that on line. The reason was because (and notice he wears gloves to protect his hand) he could hit the hammer faster with the fleshy part of his palm under his thumb and then the fleshy part of his palm under his pinky than it took for the slide of a 1911 to reciprocate to allow a second shot. It was close but the revolver was faster for him every time.
Insofar as drawing your concealed weapon is concerned, fast is arguably not the key. First, you have to have reached level red or even black before you pull your weapon. Next, it's coming out from concealment so you have to remove or otherwise get a garment out of the way or get a gun out of a pocket. These deliberate moves take time. If I have a high riding IWB holster on or an OWB I can push aside a vest or jacket, draw and shoot, and hit my target "fast enough". But if you train correctly everything else has to be in place - or you're the perpetrator. Your brain is the first tool - use it wisely.
If a gun is pointed at me I'm unlikely to do any of the foregoing until and unless my attacker is distracted or I have moved into cover or if I simply know he IS going to fire. If you think you're fast enough to beat a gun pointed at you think again, unless you're " Marshall Raylan Givens" - in which case, good for you! (You can look him up.)
The whole trick is smooth draw, cock while drawing (not safe with real bullets my friends!), there's a body bend involved (I would NOT like to try that any longer thank you very much) which I cannot actually explain but you can find plenty of these competitions on line.
Bob Munden could shoot two shots out of a single action Colt faster than he could using a 1911. You might be able to find that on line. The reason was because (and notice he wears gloves to protect his hand) he could hit the hammer faster with the fleshy part of his palm under his thumb and then the fleshy part of his palm under his pinky than it took for the slide of a 1911 to reciprocate to allow a second shot. It was close but the revolver was faster for him every time.
Insofar as drawing your concealed weapon is concerned, fast is arguably not the key. First, you have to have reached level red or even black before you pull your weapon. Next, it's coming out from concealment so you have to remove or otherwise get a garment out of the way or get a gun out of a pocket. These deliberate moves take time. If I have a high riding IWB holster on or an OWB I can push aside a vest or jacket, draw and shoot, and hit my target "fast enough". But if you train correctly everything else has to be in place - or you're the perpetrator. Your brain is the first tool - use it wisely.
If a gun is pointed at me I'm unlikely to do any of the foregoing until and unless my attacker is distracted or I have moved into cover or if I simply know he IS going to fire. If you think you're fast enough to beat a gun pointed at you think again, unless you're " Marshall Raylan Givens" - in which case, good for you! (You can look him up.)
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Again, I am often impressed by the rationale of some who seem to think in cowboy movie terms about street self-defense.
Call out all the old names you like -- Elmer, Keith, Bill, etc. -- if they're in close quarters looking down the barrel of a loaded firearm and an edgy man ready to use it, they're not winning the day if they draw; at an unlikely best, it might be a tie and everybody loses.
Bill Jordon in a comfy courtroom, with nothing to fear and no consequence for failure, using a low-slung open-carry rig designed for speed isn't the same Bill Jordon carrying IWB under a shirt and jacket, faced with an armed thug who's got Bill in the crosshairs and a finger already on the trigger.
I'll again commend all to have a look at the video referenced in my earlier post...
Call out all the old names you like -- Elmer, Keith, Bill, etc. -- if they're in close quarters looking down the barrel of a loaded firearm and an edgy man ready to use it, they're not winning the day if they draw; at an unlikely best, it might be a tie and everybody loses.
Bill Jordon in a comfy courtroom, with nothing to fear and no consequence for failure, using a low-slung open-carry rig designed for speed isn't the same Bill Jordon carrying IWB under a shirt and jacket, faced with an armed thug who's got Bill in the crosshairs and a finger already on the trigger.
I'll again commend all to have a look at the video referenced in my earlier post...
Moe Mentum
Member
Fast draw means nothing if somebody has the drop on you. I don't think any of us will be in an old west shootout at high noon on main street. I focus more on shot placement and the ability to handle my firearm in any given circumstance more than anything else. In the heat of a life threatening situation , its the first shot that counts.
Better to learn to disarm your opponent and beat him senseless with his own pistol. That's always been my plan . . .
OP
Ghost Magnum
Member
I thought this thread was dead. lol. I need to buy Bill Jordan's book. Thanks for all the insight. I was never dumb enough to fall for that wild west shoot out. I understand that you can not beat the gun already pulled on you. Smooth beats fast and so on.
Practice is very important, but mindset is the most important. This BS about you can't out draw a gun already pointed at you is just that BS. I'm 54 years old train every chance I get, but I made my mind up a long time ago no matter how far behind the curve I find myself I ain't going down without a fight. I live out in the country on a dead end road with a few neighbors. About a month ago my son and I were setting in the living room when he said DADDY there 2 guys outside with guns. He know the drill he headed to his bedroom grabbing his AR and getting my wife in there with him. When I get out of bed everyday I put my 1911 on and it doesn't come off until my clothes do. I got up and when to the door and was lucky enough to beat the 2 home invaders to the door. When they seen me they turned and ran. I retrieved my AR and extra mags and took the fight to them outside. One guy ran off never saw him again. Good and dark outside just the way I wanted it. Took my time searching when 1 of the guys from about 60 yards away came up from behind a hot tub pointing a rifle at me. Moved came up from low ready hit him with a 600 lumen light in the face and 3 60r VMAXs. I wasn't about to wait and see if he was going to pull the trigger, I knew I was. I was't going to stay hidden in my house waiting to see if he was going to go ahead and try to come in before the Sheriff's Deputy got there 20 minutes later. My mindset had already prepared me to deal with this situation and also my training. My house, my land, my rules. If you have friends who want to invest in a descent air soft gun along with yourself and proper protective gear this is a great way to find out what you fight or flight is going to let you do. Are you going to freeze, turn and run, move off the X fight no matter what? This will tell you a lot more that putting holes in paper or using a laser. The human brain is the greatest weapon we have the rest are just tools. Tactics, training, firearms, and equipment is useless without the proper mindset. They are very important but knowing 100% you will use them no matter the situation is the most important. I can go out today and buy a guitar but that want make me a musician.
Rastoff
US Veteran
Nice story KYBHOTBS. It's a perfect example of what not to do.
Welcome to the forum, KYBHOTBS.
Could you tell us a little more about your training and experience such that you know unequivocally you can draw from concealment, get on target and send rounds faster than a trigger can be pulled once?
Scary experience. Glad everything turned out okay. Since you've elected to share your armed self-defense experience, a couple questions:
Could you tell us a little more about what prompted you -- after fending off two armed strangers from your home and successfully protecting your family -- to chase off into the night after the perps, compromising your tactical advantage as well as leaving your son and wife to their own defenses?
How were you able to see the one gunman in the dark at 60 yards pointing a gun at you before bringing your weapon light into play?
Did your shots hit their mark? If so, how'd the varmint rounds fair on a two-legged?
How did law enforcement treat you and the incident once determining you had aggressively pursued a fight even after the threat had retreated?
It isn't always being fast or even accurate that counts. It's being willing.
I found out early that most men, regardless of cause or need, aren't
willing. They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull the trigger.
I won't. I'm with you John. John Wayne as J.B. Books in The Shootist.
I found out early that most men, regardless of cause or need, aren't
willing. They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull the trigger.
I won't. I'm with you John. John Wayne as J.B. Books in The Shootist.
Rastoff
US Veteran
Wow. 1.5 seconds, from concealment, at 7 yards? That's fast.
OP
Ghost Magnum
Member
Yeah, home invasion is always scary. There was a local pot head that tried to break into my cabin at 2:00 AM in the morning. He was a idiot. I used the 22 that night. It was a literal GET THE *blank* OFF MY LAWN! Kinda funny since I drive a Torino. That was all that happen that night "DON'T SHOOT, DON'T SHOOT, I WAS HUNTING HOGS AND LOOKING FOR MY DOGS!" Bull ****, but nothing happen again after that. Years ago when my Dad was working night shift. A drilling rig worker was spot lighting my parents house. I was 16 years old then. That lasted for ever. We called the police and it took a long LONG time to get to us. My Dad got a fast break to help us and ran the guy off before the police got here. Turns out there was only one Deputy active that night and his hands was tied. I kinda feel for him.
Mushin is an oriental word pronounced moo sheen. It means instantaneous
reaction without thought. Like in the martial arts it comes from endless
practice. When someone attacks you, if you have to think about how you
will react, you are toast.
It applies to other things we do in life as well. For example Yogi Berra
said "You can't hit and think at the same time".
Wyatt Earp said "The winner was usually the one who took his time - in
a hurry. You should go into action with the greatest speed your muscles
are capable of, but you should be mentally deliberate and muscularly
faster than thought."
Probably neither Yogi or Wyatt had ever heard of mushin, but that is
what they were talking about.
reaction without thought. Like in the martial arts it comes from endless
practice. When someone attacks you, if you have to think about how you
will react, you are toast.
It applies to other things we do in life as well. For example Yogi Berra
said "You can't hit and think at the same time".
Wyatt Earp said "The winner was usually the one who took his time - in
a hurry. You should go into action with the greatest speed your muscles
are capable of, but you should be mentally deliberate and muscularly
faster than thought."
Probably neither Yogi or Wyatt had ever heard of mushin, but that is
what they were talking about.
First I never said i could unequivocally out draw a already drawn firearm, I said I wasn't just going to stand there and not fight. I have used a handgun twice S&W M&P 9mm having only to fire one shot to stop the treat hits both times. The AR and varmint rounds are very nasty on a human being and yes all 3 shot hit there mark. My son is very well trained on the AR platform and also handguns. He has out shot everyone that has challenged him. Here in the state I live in I have every right to defend myself and love one inside or outside. If you know how to use darkness its your best concealment. Do you really need me to explain how I came from low ready and hit a target from only around 60 yards away (only reason I knew the distance was because I walked it off the next day ). How many 1000's of rounds have you put down range at night with a light or no light and still hit your target? Seems you missed the whole point of my post MINDSET and training. People read BS on these forums and take it for fact. Me I find out for myself what I can and can't do. Have you had your sights on a human being finger on the trigger and without a doubt in your mind you know you will pull the trigger? Will you fight through whatever is in your way to make sure you come out on top? Training lifelong. I could walk out my front door tomorrow and be shoot dead before I could react. But that is one of my training aspects, action is quicker than reaction. If you are ever in Ga and want to have a friendly competition day or night I have my on range here on my land. The term sheep, sheepdogs, and wolves is a lot older that the book Living with G Locks.
No that is average. Tuller drill proves an average person with a knife can cover 7 yards and have a blade in you in 1.5 seconds. If you are in condition yellow you go to orange before he gets that close. your in condition Red at 7 yards.
Rick O' Shay..Fast Draw
Hipshot is leaning on the bar drinking shots of whisky. A guy comes up and says, "Hipshot, I hear you are getting old and slowing down." Hipshot has his shot glass at face level, while the guy is talking down on Hipshot, he drops the whisky glass, pulls his gun and shoots a pitcher of beer on the bar, reholsters his gun and catches the glass at holster level and says something like, "You were saying..?" Of course the other guy shut up and left.
Not exactly a fast draw but... Hipshot is standing at the bar. Some old guy that Hipshot knows comes up and starts badmouthing him, telling him he going to blow daylight through him. Hipshot says, "Joe, you don't want to do that, you know you won't touch your gun and then you'll be dead." "I know Hipshot, but I've been working up to this and I'm all nerved up,...I can't stop myself" Hipshot swings and knocks him out of his boots. The guy's laying on the floor and says, "Thanks, Hipshot, I needed that." Hipshot replies, "My pleasure, son."
Hipshot is leaning on the bar drinking shots of whisky. A guy comes up and says, "Hipshot, I hear you are getting old and slowing down." Hipshot has his shot glass at face level, while the guy is talking down on Hipshot, he drops the whisky glass, pulls his gun and shoots a pitcher of beer on the bar, reholsters his gun and catches the glass at holster level and says something like, "You were saying..?" Of course the other guy shut up and left.
Not exactly a fast draw but... Hipshot is standing at the bar. Some old guy that Hipshot knows comes up and starts badmouthing him, telling him he going to blow daylight through him. Hipshot says, "Joe, you don't want to do that, you know you won't touch your gun and then you'll be dead." "I know Hipshot, but I've been working up to this and I'm all nerved up,...I can't stop myself" Hipshot swings and knocks him out of his boots. The guy's laying on the floor and says, "Thanks, Hipshot, I needed that." Hipshot replies, "My pleasure, son."
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Rastoff
US Veteran
Couldn't have said it better myself.
I'm very familiar with the Tueller Drill. It was designed to demonstrate how fast a person can move, not draw. If you can present your gun from concealment, and hit the target in the thoracic cavity in 1.5 seconds or less, you're fast, not average.
I can get a controlled pair on target, at 7 yards, from concealment in about 2.3 seconds. If I'm cold, about 2.6 seconds. With a little warm up I can get a controlled pair on target at 3 yards in 1.2 seconds, but that's on a good day.
Now, I'm not fast. The above times are just what I work toward. It can be done, but 1.5 seconds at 7 yards is fast, not average.
OP
Ghost Magnum
Member
Yeah, that knives vs Gun thing angers me. One of the first thing my Dad tought me about self defense is how horrible the knife is for personal defense. The guy with a large stick has a edge over the knife. A blade is better then nothing.
My Dads martial arts instructer did that and compleatly disproved all that Hollywood BS with a nerf gun and a rubber knife.
My Dads martial arts instructer did that and compleatly disproved all that Hollywood BS with a nerf gun and a rubber knife.
No, what you said was that in a race between the man with gun in hand, aimed and ready to fire, and the man whose firearm is holstered and concealed, it's "BS" that the first man has absolute advantage over the second.
Which defies credulity unless you can better explain your logic, and is very different from only saying that even at an overwhelming disadvantage you'd choose to fight it out.
By the way, holding fire until smart opportunity arises, increasing your odds of winning, is fighting it out, it just adds brains to bravado.
Circumstances? Ammunition used? Legal outcome? (Possums don't count...
)Nasty? Yes. Shallow, but certainly nasty. Like birdshot. How'd you come to choose gopher rounds for social work? What was the end result for the would-be intruder?
Still waiting to hear why you gave up tactical advantage to your opponents.
I didn't ask how you got your shot, I asked how -- in the darkness you favor -- you spotted your target at 60 yards training his rifle on you; presumably he enjoyed the same cover of darkness that you did, and mustn't have been under light because once spotting him you engaged your weapon light. But if you could see him without your weapon light, why did you ignite it before taking your shot? Why waste precious seconds when there's a gun on you?
No, I get it and agree -- mindset is critical. What was missed in your post is certain credible elements in how your encounter played out.
So true.
I train and am absolute in my willingness to protect myself and loved ones, too. Appreciate the invite, I'll keep it in mind if I'm ever passing through.
Until then, still waiting to hear how law enforcement handled your abandoning the safety of your home and chasing people in retreat, especially now that you confirm you shot one. That's a big deal, often even shows up in news reports...
V0OBWxZS16
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Are you referring to This is why you don't draw on a drawn gun! from Active Self Protection? You're right, that is a terrible example. The officer was killed because he could not release his pistol from his retention holster and not because he tried to draw on a drawn gun.
Greg Ellifritz surveyed the guns that his department seized from criminals. Of the 85 guns:
- 2 were loaded with the wrong ammo
- 24 were unloaded
- 4 were partially loaded
- 9 were non-functional
- 17 malfunctioned frequently
Most criminals have been trained by previous victims to expect compliance and not an immediate violent counterattack. Immediately stepping offline and producing a firearm makes you the actor and interferes with their OODA loop.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not telling you to go for the pistol or claiming you're guaranteed to win. I'm just pointing out the odds aren't as bad as we're usually lead to believe.
As I said previously, we are statistically more likely to be hurt if we
comply than we are if we fight. This is in agreement with statement
above by VOOBWxZS16.
As to the great debate: OPINIONS VARY!
comply than we are if we fight. This is in agreement with statement
above by VOOBWxZS16.
As to the great debate: OPINIONS VARY!
Donn I've seen that quote credited to Bat Masterson, Bill Jordan, et. al.
As a matter of fact I've said it a few times myself. But never the less it
is still true.
As a matter of fact I've said it a few times myself. But never the less it
is still true.
Per AZ Quotes, the exact quote is "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything. In a gunfight, you need to take your time in a hurry." I expect it's been borrowed and modified many times, but Earp's credited with it.
Watchdog
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Ghost Magnum
Member
Its about time for this thread to die.
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